THe leveling grind will kill this game in less than a year if something doesn't change.

    Quote from Segovax

    Tell me how many Manics did you do solo in the past week?

    About 80-90% of them.


    And to the text topic. You can complain about it and nothing happens or you can change your way of writing and everybody will understand you. A forum is like advertisement, you are trying to get the attention of the viewers. Keep it simple, stupid.

    Thoughts in bold.


    Please don't dumb down this game. I'm sick of seeing the games become braindead spamfests with zero thought put in to anything before cap just to satisfy casuals. Blade and Soul's dungeons are a fucking joke now because of that and killed all mechanics that normal dungeons had because people are too stupid to know what mechanics are. And then they try to do hard mode knowing fuck-all and then they end up ruining runs because they don't know shit.


    Who the fuck are these "casual players" anyway? I get that you want a large playerbase but is it really that important to try to hold on to a player that's super likely to not even bother with the game much at all? Why do we keep trying to reward players who don't plan to invest any time or effort in to actually playing?

    I do feel that one of the assumptions here, namely that group leveling is required at all is wrong. At risk of repeating myself(because I swear I might have said this already), Maniac solo is your best source of exp(ironically dying at the boss having better exp to FP ratio than killing the boss).


    The key point is, it's just incredibly boring. Not everyone wants to do the most efficient method because it's dull. The problem is, literally everything under it is like trying to cut cold butter with a spork.


    *note: I do feel the text wall could have been simplified to an incredibly basic level, but it's OP post. Eh, forums.

    Quote from Nan

    Maniac solo is your best source of exp


    The key point is, it's just incredibly boring. Not everyone wants to do the most efficient method because it's dull. The problem is, literally everything under it is like trying to cut cold butter with a spork.

    You do get exp bonuses for running in parties tho.


    Tradeoff being harder hitting monsters and having to deal with people that make boss randomly cycle aggro and you end up not getting a chance to cast your god damn skills because for some reason the ones hounding on the boss the entire time can't outdps your combo but you're also tasked with healing them while you're getting pounded by the boss too then you end up dying seconds after the boss dies because some stupid DoT kills you and the mediqube couldn't heal a 2k-per-tic DoT and then ur forced to leave the dungeon run without picking up the drops because you dont want to use the revive to just pick up some mid-tier yellow drops

    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


    Also why would you leave dungeons before ending? That means less achievement progressions :thinking:

    I mean I think you've pointed it out yourself, but certain auto teams just make the run take so much longer. The bonus is like 10% at a full 4 player party I think?


    If you plan to solo and kill the boss, I assume you can consistently get S+ pretty much everytime. When you're in a party, it feels like more of a hassle, and your final party ranking determines your clear exp too.


    Also, eh, combat achievements.

    Real talk right there.


    Im fine with the exp we have now. For the first char.

    However they must change the grade system you get post 55 wich gives bonus exp.

    Now to lvl up an alt with more or less facilities, you need to farm twice if not more as much as you farmed exp for the main char

    wYvcCcb.gif

    Yes, you do get bonus exp with party but players complain if you die at the boss to save Energy (you get better exp with dying at the boss instead of full clear energy wise, that is if you don't care about progress %). Right now exp/difficulty are good enought for me, not too slow or too fast. Pretty easy to solo manic sectors as well if you know what you are doing. About number of players, didn't see any problems with finding players to run with. Tho i prefer to run solo than wait for full party, if someone cancel with 2-3 players i just run myself instead. I'll do faster solo than wait a few minutes because someone is afraid of doing one without full party. The only problem is energy amount daily and it's usage, can't do much at higher lvl's.

    Quote from Nan

    I do feel that one of the assumptions here, namely that group leveling is required at all is wrong. At risk of repeating myself(because I swear I might have said this already), Maniac solo is your best source of exp(ironically dying at the boss having better exp to FP ratio than killing the boss).


    The key point is, it's just incredibly boring. Not everyone wants to do the most efficient method because it's dull. The problem is, literally everything under it is like trying to cut cold butter with a spork.


    *note: I do feel the text wall could have been simplified to an incredibly basic level, but it's OP post. Eh, forums.

    The fact that running into the hardest dungeons in the game and literally dying on purpose being the best and most efficient play-style while leveling is absolutely asinine in and of itself. Think about it. Why should you even have to play like this to begin with. And you are right...It IS boring. So why not CHANGE it for the better (while the game is ALREADY in a beta phase) for the sake of better game design? For the sake o making a more enjoyable game for all players. That is what I am attempting to do but some people are so terrified of any change it's not even funny.

    Just saying but do you understand what does most efficient exp to energy ratio mean? Even if you doubled exp in game it still would be the same. Why not just increase exp so you kill 1 mob with new char and hit lvl cap? Obviously would be the best for some. There was plenty of mmo where you had to farm a few days to just lvl up once, Soul Worker have fast enought lvling in my opinion ( within a week you can hit cap unless you do every useless quest from lower lvl).

    The only problem with leveling is when the population dwindles and there are no more low lvl parties to auto-team, that scares newbs more than a lengthy level grind (which isn't even that bad).

    If they make the grind too easy then nobody will be at the lower levels.

    Also encourages vets who make alts to party with newbs with a longer leveling curve.

    As long as the exp curve at 55 doesnt stay the same when 60 cap releases it should be fine.


    Also the game's "progression" tab encourages you to complete dungeons for some very nice rewards.... it's your choice if you want to cap ASAP, or snag some loot along the way. I think this is a fair tradeoff.

    Just because it's efficient doesn't mean it's gonna be fun.


    There are a ton of guides on various games about the most efficient way to do x, or grind for y. It's not about having fun, it's about reaching the end goal. If the end goal in this case is getting to cap through killing yourself in manic dungeons to preserve energy to do it again that's what you want and not something you're being forced to do.


    If all you plan to do is get to cap while caring about nothing else at all on the way there, how the hell are you going to expect to find any fun or excitement in that?


    It's your choice and your choice alone basically ignore everything about the game in order get to your end goal.

    It being fun or not is irrelevant. Manic grinding is necessary, as this is the ONLY source of good xp in the game. Killing yourself to cut the run short is bad because it is fundamentally broken on a game design level, not because it's "not fun". Doing this should never be a practical means to play a game. Ever.


    And yes, the end goal of this game (any mmo ever, actually) Is to hit the level cap and progress further in the endgame. Taking your time or rushing to the cap is purely subjective on the individual player and has no relevance to this discussion, which is about progression mechanics. The speed at which the player chooses to progress though a game has no bearing on the activities the game provides for the player.


    The problem is you are pretending like there is some other way to level in this game, there isn't. The only way to level effectively is to Grind Ep4 manic solely for the mob xp. This is the only source of consistent progression and gear in this game, there are no other viable alternatives to play, so you will have no choice but to embrace this playstyle. All of this leads back to my op, how this playstyle is unsustainable assuming all players want to forever embrace the current difficulty of manics, and the dropping playerbase in leveling content cutting off the option for those who want to group for whatever reasons need be.


    This can be fixed by distributing some of this xp that is earned through mainc grinding into OTHER activities the game could offer, like questing, nomal/hard modes, steel graves, crafting, giving dailies an xp reward, dynamic questing, even PvP, etc. This decreases the absolute reliance on grinding Ep4 manic and increases gameplay variety for the player.

    Or decrease overall xp needed to level is another alternative, either one would work.

    How is manic even hard right now? I know our version is suppose to be a lot hard, but honestly it doesn't feel that way.I don't understand. If you have even blue drops, manic is not that hard. I only start having difficulty once I hit later parts of Grace City where boss can one shot you. That is only solo play, with group play, manic never gave us any problem at all, we would unlock it right after one normal run, then go straight to manic and kill the boss easily.


    Also story quest rewards you way more for doing so little. One story main quest rewards like half of your exp bar(just now I got 4.8mil at lvl 39 for one quest) and if you do some side quest along with some minor manic grind, you level super fast.

    Quote from Mostein
    Quote from Xandorai

    I read his post, and again, it boils down to the Energy system, not the amount of XP we get from whatever we do. Complaining that Manics are too hard to solo wasn't worth responding too. Story quests usually get you more than 50% of a lvl, but it is the Energy that drains faster than you can gain XP which slows ppl down... so again, nothing is going to change.

    You read my post, and somehow made it about the Energy(fatigue) system. The fatigue mechanic has little to no correlation to the topic I am discussing.

    Leveling is all about Energy management. The main two points I got from your post is that you believe that Manics are too hard to solo, and that you fear there won't be enough people in the lower levels to group up with. My response is that if people are running Manics to level, they won't be killing the boss.... because that will be making the most of their Energy pool. So yes, there is a direct correlation between leveling and energy. I'm sorry if you don't see that.


    As for your worry about low populations in low level areas... well, that happens in every single game. Getting through them won't be harder for newer players than it was for older players, as long as they are interested enough in the game to do some reading. Gearing yourself in Uniques might the only "issue" for newer players, but its not that big of a deal since you can level up just fine using blues.


    So again, it is not the XP rate we have here that will push people away, it will be the limited Energy they have to spend on getting that XP.

    Given that the Energy cost for running a district is split between entering and killing the boss, it is not a design flaw at all, but allows players to kill the boss for loot, but at the cost of Energy... or leaving and saving Energy to run again. For more xp.

    So from what I'm understanding, your main points are:
    1. Players shouldn't have to use the suicide manic run strategy if they want to level up in an "efficient" manner, because a dungeon is meant to be cleared.

    2. However, manic runs are difficult to solo, and you fear that eventually there won't be enough players to consistently pop auto-queue.


    3. I'm not sure why you want to redistribute XP from manic mobs into other activities; to promote players focusing on other aspects of the game?


    However, looking at your solutions, it seems that your problem has more to do with the fact that players would have to run manic difficulty at all, especially down the road in 6 months or however long. If that is the case, then like I've stated earlier in this post, I believe you're stating something that game publishers are already well aware of, and is a common practice in the industry. I'll use my experience from playing Blade and Soul as an example: when the game was just released, dungeons had all their full intended mechanics. As the player population progressed, and lower levels became a deadzone, dungeons were simplified, and some mechanics which were required to beat the dungeons were even removed so that a player could solo it.


    Game publishers are well aware of this trend, and they've been doing it for a long time. There is no need for you to cry out about how this will be the reason the game dies, because they WILL change it as they need to.


    Now, to address some of the issues you've been bringing up: to make clearing dungeons more appealing, wouldn't it make more sense to just simply increase the clear exp or give bonus dzenai when you clear a dungeon? To deal with #1 stated above, it's a matter of making the intrinsic rewards for clearing a dungeon higher than the intrinsic rewards for running the dungeon twice without the boss. Currently, the clear exp is relatively trivial, and the only reason anyone would run to clear the dungeon is for the district completion rewards, or for loot drops (uniques, blueprints, etc). So if GameForge were to edit the game so that players were rewarded better for CLEARING the dungeon, they would no longer (or be less likely) to use the suicide run strategy.

    My point here is that I believe your approach might be a bit flawed, and some of the suggestions you brought up are not applicable to this particular nature of game. You may have experience playing MMOs, but recognize that there are various genres/subgenres of MMOs. Dungeon crawler MMOs, like SoulWorker and Blade and Soul, operate very differently from open-world type MMOs like Black Desert, Archeage, and an old one from my childhood, Runescape. In dungeon crawler types, practically EVERYTHING is done through dungeons or something similar; quests are the typical "get this from this dungeon", "kill X amount of Y creep in this dungeon", and so forth, and the only method of acquiring necessary items to do other stuff (other than buying them on the market) is through running dungeons and getting them from drops. On the other hand, take Runescape for example, the process to acquire materials for leveling skills vary greatly; some are collection based, some are combat based.


    I'll address each of your solutions in the quote I quoted: Moving/improving exp to

    Normals/Hard Modes: will most likely be done in the future anyway without your prompt, that or ease the difficulty of manic mode.

    Quests: this is fair, and will most likely also be done in the future where they will lessen the exp curve required to reach level cap so a new player can catch up.

    Dynamic questing: you'll have to explain more of what you meant by dynamic questing.
    PvP: this could lead to severe power/level/gear abuse situations unless a specific PvP mode/stage is created; that rests on the developer of the game Lion Games, and not the publisher.

    Crafting: everything that has to do with crafting is pretty much dungeon related anyway. Blueprints are farmed in dungeons, materials are dropped from dungeons. Moving exp to crafting would only make crafting be another gate as it forces players to craft items (more than likely at points where it is not a necessary activity).


    Not going to make a TL;DR because I'd want you to read my points and consider them if you were to reply, rather than not addressing some of the rebuttals, but for a summary: I agree with you that this current exp grind method is not sustainable, but I believe it is not of our concern because it will be taken care of. Additionally, I don't agree with some of your solutions that you offered, see above for reasons and my thoughts. Thanks in advance for taking the time to read it.

    EDIT: Upon reading your latest comment (one below), it seems your issue with the game is addressed at the fact that this is a dungeon crawler MMO. Unfortunately then, I'd say you've found yourself at the wrong place. Soul Worker is inherently an anime-style free-style (as in non-locked in) action combat dungeon crawler MMO, and you are wishing that it were more than that. In that case I believe you've misunderstood the nature/subgenre of the game you are playing, and your issues would be better suited as feedback for the Korean developers who created the game, and not the publisher. In this case, I would step back and rather take an objective look at the game, and figure out what components of the game you enjoy, because IMO, this game is not what you were looking for.

    Edited 3 times, last by Etsuya ().

    No. Once again, the fatigue system has no correlation to the matter I am discussing. And you seem to miss the point.

    I do not care about how long it takes to level. I do not care about manic difficulty in and of itself being "too hard" or "too easy".


    What I am doing is pointing out a flaw in the leveling design, and stressing out the main reasons why it is not sustainable. Ep4 Manics are the only consistent character progression in this game, and because of this, it will ultimately hurt the game if something is not done to encourage play in other aspects of the game. What I ultimately seek is to improve the leveling experience by giving the average player more viable options to progress through the game. You achieve this by either adding variety of new rewarding mechanics to the game OR change the way xp is currently distributed in the game. Either option achieves a similar result. Changing the energy pool does not change the fact that you will have to grind 3,000+ manics to level cap, therefore there is little correlation to what I want to see changed.


    Again, this is not about being able to solo manics. This is not about "it takes too long to level up." It is about HOW you level up. This is the biggest thing most people in this thread fail to comprehend, because they do not read my posts thoroughly. They see me mention xp rates and some problems that comes with manic difficulty, and automatically assume "Oh he just want the game to be EZ mode like JP becuz he is bad" That is not true.

    I actually read.The only real palpable xp rate problem is in Rucco Town,in early game,explainable by not having a wide kit of abilities in that moment.The rest goes more smoothly.If the players are giving up because of some challenging lvling,idk how they will feel when they must farm DZ/items.Picking a right equipment with "Bonus xp from Enemies" and doing,if possible,ep on manic with "bonus xp" tag shall correct this.But this is my opinion

    I am the handle of my gun

    Speed is my body and bullet is my blood

    I have created over a thousand guns

    Unknown to Myriam,nor known to Lex

    I have withstood pain to create many relationships

    Yet,those hands will never hold anything

    So as I pray

    Unlimited gun works!