New VIP Memberships PAY2WIN

    I'm not sure what you guys are smoking, but if you look at the prices of the items and benefits within these packages individually and then compare them to the prices of the packages themselves, they are insanely cost efficient.

    Insanely.

    Thanks, Gameforge. This doesn't absolve the sins that are some of the other things in the premium shop, but these packages are definitely amazing if you're going to play the game enough.

    So far there is little room to claim game is P2W, doubtful enough these packs do only work for people who have the extra time and effort to grind an extra on a daily basis, plus let's not forget how does this equal to in-game value

    So silver package is around 10M in EU, gold and silver is between 40-50M each taking into consideration that you are maxed out already, you can run ruin fortress districts and make around 3-5M daily with 200 energy, so it's around 2-3 days of grinding to get the silver package which only gives you around some more gold that is little difference to what you may earn now, and you only get an extra 5 runs off the energy value, but you don't get any free gear from it and the AR are debatable since you can get RNGesus and get bad ones, and also I am scrapping the extra XP value given that now you just grind your RANK exp for helping your alts later on, so with all of that in mind how does these packs become P2W? When there is no clear advantage over others than just getting an average of another 5-12 free districts runs on a daily basis, you are only paying at most for convenience of rushing to hit level cap asap, which doesn't seem a bad deal, I would had raged over of the packs gave a full lv 55 unique set which may had been a huge deal breaker for most "F2P" but so far it hasn't been, plus and as I stated you can even buy it with cash earned in game so.... There is no real definitive P2W wall on the packs in the end

    Quote from Lilabelle

    I'm not sure what you guys are smoking, but if you look at the prices of the items and benefits within these packages individually and then compare them to the prices of the packages themselves, they are insanely cost efficient.

    Insanely.

    Thanks, Gameforge. This doesn't absolve the sins that are some of the other things in the premium shop, but these packages are definitely amazing if you're going to play the game enough.

    Im not really sure why everyone is saying this a good deal when it costs people in NA/Canada like $40+ for the silver+gold pack. The $20 amount is only applicable to EU players, honestly anyone who lives in NA/Canada that is willingly buying soul cash does not understand how much they are being ripped off.

    Quote from Yamato

    Uh its not a subscription, its a VIP service. A subscription implies you pay to log in. Understand what you're paying for here; benefits, not play time.

    You sound like the one that needs to understand what they are paying for, part of this "service" is giving you an extra 200EP daily. That alone allows for a couple hours of extra play time that you would normally not have access to.


    Also i see a lot of people in this thread saying these packs were made for casuals and i would have to say you are incorrect. Packs like these are targeted at the community as a whole because they are meant to work as subscriptions, something people buy once a month. Plus if a casual feels like they have to buy these packs just to keep up there is something fundamentally flawed with the game or the way its being run.

    qk24OWM.png

    It's not p2w YET. Just because some idiots will get more money faster it does not change the fact that if they can't play the game because they are weak then they will not clear raids and will not be the best. Why it's so hard for people to understand this? Money is not equal to skill in this game. I'm leveling up slowly, having fun for now and enjoying the game. I don't need membership to boost my ego, I know I can play this game well and don't need money to prove it.



    Quote from Natt
    Quote from Alzii
    Quote from Zent

    Well coming from Black Desert Online, this is a ridiculous price to pay for even "convenience" on a game that is of a much smaller scale. Short term I agree not p2w, long term it is def p2w on a player controlled market. We can only hope that some of this is offset with weekend events and such which I would welcome.

    Aren't Value Packs like $30 for 30 days? I mean, it is a good deal for what it offers, at least. I'm still on my returner surplus of value packs atm

    $15 for 30 days

    per character - this is per account

    Literally everything gives an advantage a free player can't get (and good luck having any listed on market or being able to afford one pre-55 after tons of grinding for money).


    Half the people here say "what advantage?"


    Can't tell if trolling or if they're seriously defending P2W, let alone defending a company who's sole purpose is to make money.


    The companies don't care about you at all, stop being imbeciles.

    Whats pay 2 win for you?

    No saracasm, i really want to know what the deffinition of 2w for you


    Let me explain why this pack is not worth the money it is asked and why at best it's pay to progress

    • Bonus EP: nice, but with all the week-ends we get with reduced ep consumption, i hardly doubt you will spend 600 energy, yet 800 per day vitamins excluded.
    • Dzen bonus: Sean says hi
    • 20% drop rate: But for what? why? you will just to grind a bit more for the item, much p2w, very wow
    • No market fees: ok, nice bonus, but than again, it's just dzen farming
    • 15 akashka per month: Cute, my friend farms 28 per day without dropping a penny in the game. Free 2 win?

    wYvcCcb.gif

    Edited once, last by Fairlyn ().

    Quote from Fairlyn

    Whats pay 2 win for you?

    No saracasm, i really want to know what the deffinition of 2w for you

    The ability to purchase an in-game advantage with real money.


    That is the definition of "pay to win".


    It doesn't matter what it is, doesn't matter how big or small it is, it doesn't matter if it's PvE or PvP; if it's an advantage you can buy with real money, you are "paying to win".


    The severity of it from thereon is then subjective and what most people try to argue over without understanding the core concept.

    Pay 2 win os when you get a super item from the marker wich is unobtainable in the game for free users.

    Dzen are farmable.

    Loot is farmable.

    Akashka too.

    Exp too


    It's just pay to progress. Learn the difference between two

    wYvcCcb.gif

    I think pay2progress is a stupid term that people will keep using as games continue to become more exclusively p2w. They just get used to saying it that when it becomes as bad as BnS where you can now legit only gear up properly by spending hundreds for some shitty upgrade item that is nigh-impossible to farm ingame and they still call it pay2progress. They have a daily rotation of upgrade items in the cash shop that can take days to farm normally or are only obtainable through pvp and they still call that pay2progress. There's that shitty trove event that comes out every quarter that whales cash hard on to get enough upgrade materials for who knows what and never really have to play the game at all and they still call it pay2progress.


    Calling the premium bonuses in here p2w is a joke too. Kinda sucks too tbh. What you get for it really isn't all that worth the price honestly. It's not required at all to play the game; it's just some side benefits.

    Quote from Fairlyn

    It's just pay to progress. Learn the difference between two

    It's pay to win, learn the definition of it. Pay to progress, pay to skip, pay to enjoy, etc., they all mean the same damn thing: Pay to win.


    And if you want to argue further: You can list cash shop items on the market. You can use the money you get from those sales to buy gear. You can directly pay to win by selling cash items and buying better gear.


    Have I said enough yet, or are you still going to be stuck in your closed mindset?

    The only item that is p2w is skill reset.

    No more, no less.


    See, in every mmo it is impssible to balance the p2p because players like you (no offence) will alwyas see it as p2w. Even the slightest advantage they will use as an argument to justify their point of view.


    But to be honest, there is a limit where p2p becomes p2w. And i can assure you, we are far away to reach this limit.

    If the bonuses where 5-10 rimes higher, yes, it would p2w

    wYvcCcb.gif

    Edited 2 times, last by Fairlyn ().

    For a definition I'd say the best one I can come up with is that pay to win is when the advantages a game offers through the use of real money, or a real money equivalent currency exceeds what you're personally comfortable with. The thing about pay to win though, as that definition indicates, is that it's completely subjective, and as a result, can be heavily influenced by bias. This is why people keep getting into arguments about it, and as it is subjective, it also means while neither side is universally "right," it also means neither side are wrong either.


    I've seen people come up with a definition for pay to win so loose, that any online game with a cash shop would be pay to win according to it. I've also seen people come up with definitions that would make no game pay win. I've seen people claim a game was pay to win for selling cosmetic items, storage expansions, and/or there being gold sellers in the game (note: I'm not talking about games with an official currency exchange system, I'm talking about those people you find in about every online game spamming chat about how you can buy the in-game currency if you go to their web site). I've also seen people claim a game wasn't pay to win, when it was selling best in slot combat equipment, and related that was only sourced from the cash shop. I've seen someone rhyme off a list of things saying that if a game has any of them, the game is instantly pay to win, later when discussing a game that had a number of them, he claimed it had the fairest profit model of any game he had ever played, since it was his favourite game.


    People that have come to be very critical of a game, or company, or just hate one, or both of them will always find a way to label a game as pay to win. Those that can be too forgiving of a game, company, or both at the same time will always find a way to claim a game isn't pay to win. In the end though, pay to win isn't black, or white, it's just a blurry mass of grey.





    Side note:

    A company selling the things you are playing for (ex: equipment, materials, or not just boosters, but outright XP) people often try to defend as just pay to progress faster, or the like. Problem is, especially when a company is both the publisher, and developer, it is then VERY easy for them to manipulate things so it is very difficult for people to do things that won't make the company a profit, even if a given player didn't spend money directly themselves.


    I saw one company when they decided to put two very sought after materials in the cash shop, at the same time increase the volume of those materials required to build things by 2x for the one, and 5x for the other, without increasing the rate of gains in-game by any noticeable amount. While that company was being very blatant, it would be very easy to do something similar, without it being apparent that they were doing so, like by slowly adding new items that required such items in high volumes, slowly tinkering with drop rates, and adding hidden special rules to drop rates (ex: daily caps, adjusting drop rates based on certain player specific conditions, etc...).


    Then what you should be very worried about is if a company not only is selling such things, but also has a cash shop currency directly used in player trading. Once they've gone, and done that, then they are now even more financially motivated to tinker with drop rates, and other such things, as they're getting a cut in many ways.

    Not... one of those would allow you to beat another player in PvP.

    Why WOULDN'T a free game have VIP packs.. They have to pay for server upkeep somehow..

    Every f2p game has some form of premium service... Please, this might seem like it's p2w but I'll raise the drawing the line argument again.

    IF this is where you draw your line for pay to win, simply do not play. These bonuses are mild compared to that of the following

    Any Nexon game (See reforges, magic cubes or any of their gacha hell items that give STATS on gear. (We're talking +35% skill damage on some cases and as much as 12x damage in others)
    Any Aeria game
    (Going to use aura kingdom for an example: "Give us $300 bucks and get this exclusive Eidolon that no one else has")
    NCwest
    (Roll this luna chest to get a shot at the best PvP gear in the game.)

    In this case, a simple premium service that gives 30% more DZ (total) Really... doesn't bother me at all. WIth two characters (Armor is transferrable through the warehouse) I've only had to buy weapons for my 10-32 grind thusfar and I'm in NO shortage of DZ (Sitting on 1.8m with +4 gear for current level and previous level armor sets. then +4 respective weapons)

    20% more Drops? They're still common enough (even without the 20% bonus) Where I'll get at least 1 orange every 1-2 runs. (which is fucking mellow compared to some of the orange drops in say.. closers or Elsword in comparison) Grutin spawns? Again DZ isn't really a problem for me and I still see one every 2-3 runs.


    There's no Inherent (combat) Stat bonuses.
    There are no bonuses to EXP gained.
    Stamina is LAUGHABLY easy to restore as it is.
    Market fee? 9% is pretty lax compared to the 35% I'm used to (Seriously eat a fat one cuckao) Also I've yet to run into an issue where I have more items to list than I have registerable slots on the marketplace. (Word of advice from the wise, don't sell your gear drops, dismantle them, you get more DZ from the mats if you're that desperate for money. )

    Oh, and if you feel these are GAMEBREAKING changes, they can be purchased with DZ To reap the rewards on?

    These are some mellow bonuses, friend, I wouldn't be spouting off the mouth about P2W yet. Gameforge has PLEEEENTY of time to screw that one up before launch, but this is not one of those times. Have they shot themselves in the foot yet? No, However they do have a fully loaded gun aimed at their feet.

    But from what I've gathered most of the top players on the Candus server. They're well above everyone else and they didn't drop a dime on the game. The cashpocolypse hasn't hit yet. .....yet

    It's not pay 2 win it's pay 2 progress, i play 4 charcs a day rn why would i want this thing, also SW barely has any content even in JP/KR after all the time it has been out, so i dunno what's the hurry ppl have to get best in slots ingame, do you guys wanna burn out from the game that badly?
    The faster you get the things you want the faster you will start asking yourselves "what do i do now again?" on a game with so little content.

    "Wee yea ra enne ar sar. Wee yea ra enne ar dor"
    "Wee yea ra enne ar ciel. Rrha yea ra ieeya en near    "
      dnHc39F.jpg

    "Fou yea ra waath ar ciel, en hymme mea, weel nepo en keen ar sar"

    "Rasse, rasse, rasse, rasse, rasee, rasse, en rana!"

    Quote from Geis

    Im not really sure why everyone is saying this a good deal when it costs people in NA/Canada like $40+ for the silver+gold pack. The $20 amount is only applicable to EU players, honestly anyone who lives in NA/Canada that is willingly buying soul cash does not understand how much they are being ripped off.


    This has nothing to do with our topic, but lets take some key points from here: first, that there's people out there who have and will buy Soulcash at NA conversion prices, either because they believe its worth the price, or they don't care. You may believe its a rip-off, but others may not.


    Second, we are looking at this from a f2p perspective and how non-paying players are affected by this. That is the entire point of this topic; to discuss if this package is pay2win or not, and my assertion is that its not even remotely close.


    Quote from Geis

    You sound like the one that needs to understand what they are paying for, part of this "service" is giving you an extra 200EP daily. That alone allows for a couple hours of extra play time that you would normally not have access to.


    Do you know the difference between paying for play time and paying for EXTRA play time? They're not the same thing.


    Getting into the semantics of play time and how its defined would take too long, but lets say that district 6 hunting is play time, and leveling other characters is play time, and leveling your MAIN character with the standard 200 EP is play time.


    The only thing the 200 EP from VIP does is allow you to spend more time doing dungeons on a particular character. And there's ways to get around it and access that extra play time without spending a cent if you can't get your fix for the day, which isn't an option in a direct subscription game like FFXIV or ESO.


    Quote from Geis

    Also i see a lot of people in this thread saying these packs were made for casuals and i would have to say you are incorrect. Packs like these are targeted at the community as a whole because they are meant to work as subscriptions, something people buy once a month. Plus if a casual feels like they have to buy these packs just to keep up there is something fundamentally flawed with the game or the way its being run.

    Many f2p games like TERA, Tree of Savior, and Closers have VIP monthly services that run 30 days, equating to a monthly subscription if you choose to benefit from it. Its well known that the free to play market ironically tends to generates more revenue than pay to play models, because people love having the illusion of freedom. Sure you don't HAVE to spend 20 bucks a month, but look at the cool things you get if you do! It's sales 101.


    A casual will ALWAYS feel pressured to pay to enjoy benefits, because they're casuals. They feel pressured to buy costumes cause they can't farm dzenai, they feel pressured to buy anti-destructions cause they can't complete progress and get the free ones, they feel pressured to buy respawners because they can't git gud (relax I know some casuals are pretty gud, I'm saying on average).


    Are you telling me with EP pots, mats, and bonus rollover EP, a casual is going to even NEED an extra 200 EP per day? Get real bro.