Gameforge, please don't revert the raids if you don't have to.

Quote from Lilabelle

The circles cover the entire map currently, but they don't all appear at the same time. So you stand in the last circle to spawn (which coincidentally seems to be the one next to the entrance which used to be safe) and right before it hits you move to one of the circles that spawned before it (because the explosion will have already happened in that area) in a spot that's not being overlapped by a soon to occur explosion. Then you just repeat; right before that one occurs you move to another spot that was already blown up, etc.

It takes a little bit of timing and attention but it's doable.

Yeah I had noticed that but the timing seems really tight. So far, I've not been able to avoid getting hit at least once per AoE but I guess I'll just keep practicing. Doesn't change the fact, that the shields not working is a bug but I guess it's something.

Edit: Ok, I think I've found a safe-spot near the boss on the left from where u enter the bossfight. Really small though so Kurisu should be lured far away before pushing his HP far enough for the AoE to happen.

Quote from Naruse

Quote from Kasseopea

Quote from Naruse

It is overall better if they keep these changes, again, the nerf isn't that ridiculous as you make it sound and what do you mean by 'nu already good gears'? You don't get Suzie set at raids which is the one everyone should aim for, you mean that you're struggling way too much because you only have Suzie's set without good line effects? Cause that and the upgrade level would be the only outstanding difference and none of them are raids drops dependant. Soulstones are a good boost but I doubt that they could make an abysmal difference between someone with them and someone with none so relax.

What i mean is - now the ones who are already fat and rich can get fatter and richer, while those who just arrived at Lv55 are sh*t out of luck if they want to catch up in this century. It takes 24 shards to get a Soulstone from Lv1 to Lv2. That's now an entire day of grinding.

Those who already have their stuff, get the same amount of dz, because the prices will obviously skyrocket. Those who still need soulstones tho, will have to work multiple times harder to aquire them.

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But but, don't get me wrong but... isn't meant to eventually happen? I mean that's the difference of getting your stuff done before everyone else. in case that they remove this, people 'nu geared' aware about it will get their stuff done and when the update comes again there will still be people who just got level 55 complaining about this so there's nu really point in my opinion. We still need to wait for GF response so (I think it's actually fine tho) let's see.

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Ok, either i am horrible at expressing myself, or you are playing dumb.

Yes, it is meant to happen that people who play longer get advantages. It is NOT meant to happen however, raids suddenly become more difficult and drop less, so that newbies are double-f*cked. First because they started out later and are at a disadvantage to begin with. And a second time because raid drops got nerfed and those are both - the source of income and necessary upgrade materials.

I just got my Lv55 Set together. Now i need items that are between 10 and 30 millions in AH, but an entire day of farming nets only a couple of fragments.

There is neither motivation, nor fun in farming, if the results are so hilariously meager.

Quote from Nitros

Simple. The players wanted a PvP mode, or endgame content, and they wanted it fast. An irregular patch without enough time to firmly test it. What do you expect to happen?

Thats a terrible excuse even if they wanted it fast they could still test it even a day of testing could have shown the pvp was not working correctly since it opening is all based on server time. Another couple days of testing would have found that the raids were changed. Even if you did not want to do testing these kinds of mistakes show a clear issue with the communication between gameforge and lion games and that is all on them not the players, since we cant control how professional they are when it come making sure what they get is correct.

So stop having such low standards when it comes to publishers. Considering this is the second time that gameforge has said they implemented one thing and implemented something entirely different it is safe to say they do ZERO testing before pushing patches. Regardless of how bad the player base wants it.

That's not an excuse, that's reality. We normally spend a whole week before release testing everything. The costume itself spends time testing it. I wirte a lot of unit and integration tests. However, there are still bugs. And this is just a web application I am talking about. Games are much more complex.

Of course I can spent even more time for automated testing. But who is going to pay that? I was in meeting today about change requests. The customer didn't like it when something got a bit more expensiv then expected.

When your are a developer, you do start to be more understanding with those things. I don't like the "banana principle" either, but I am very well aware that it's sometimes just simply necessary. Although I am pretty sure they did test this and just went "Shit!", when they saw this happening. It always behaves different in production then in QA... Google it, you will find a lot of stories about this.

Also the raid thing. You are basically saying they should test everything befor every update. I agree that some some smoke test, should be done, but there is a limit to this. I would not test something totally unrelated unless it a common cause of errors. Again, who is going to pay for this?

And other question, what to do if you find a bug? Delay everything for a week? Then you get complains again. Whatever you do, you lose. That's why I am a bit more understanding, because I know how it is to be in this kind of situation. I feels bad.

Quote from Nitros

That's not an excuse, that's reality. We normally spend a whole week before release testing everything. The costume itself spends time testing it. I wirte a lot of unit and integration tests. However, there are still bugs. And this is just a web application I am talking about. Games are much more complex.

Of course I can spent even more time for automated testing. But who is going to pay that? I was in meeting today about change requests. The customer didn't like it when something got a bit more expensiv then expected.

When your are a developer, you do start to be more understanding with those things. I don't like the "banana principle" either, but I am very well aware that it's sometimes just simply necessary. Although I am pretty sure they did test this and just went "Shit!", when they saw this happening. It always behaves different in production then in QA... Google it, you will find a lot of stories about this.

Also the raid thing. You are basically saying they should test everything befor every update. I agree that some some smoke test, should be done, but there is a limit to this. I would not test something totally unrelated unless it a common cause of errors. Again, who is going to pay for this?

And other question, what to do if you find a bug? Delay everything for a week? Then you get complains again. Whatever you do, you lose. That's why I am a bit more understanding, because I know how it is to be in this kind of situation. I feels bad.

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I would have to disagree, while i don't expect them to test everything in the game every time a patch rolls around i do expect them to test content focal points such as important endgame (raids) and w/e they are adding. If bugs pop up anywhere else players can report them after the patch releases. I also don't expect them to delay content for minor bugs, but if their main focal point (pvp in this case) isnt working i absolutely expect a delay, now i can understand pvp working in testing if they even did any and then it not working after adding it to the servers. But that still does not excuse how there were other major changes they had no idea even happened.

This brings me to my second point which is communication between the gameforge and liongames something you completely ignored in your replay. Everything that has happened in the last two patches can easily be blamed on poor communication between the two companies. There is clearly a issue when it comes to communicating what is in a patch or what isnt in a patch, along with what gameforge wants from the developers. Its possible that lions games just gives them w/e they feel is needed but even then there is an issue since gameforge is not getting or trying to get the proper information on what is being given to them.

I understand the woes of software development but that does not excuse the core issue they are running in to which is communication.

JH is a pain in the ass to solo now... Other raids are probably even worse.

Quote

b-b-b-but you are not supposed to solo it!

Yeah, whatever you say.

I think there's a quite misunderstanding in here...

First of all, to those panicking, the drop rate wasn't *nerfed nor buffed.* Keep in mind that fragment are still RNG, and the average per run is about the SAME it was before. A certain Fragment number NOT guaranteed, you can get from 0 to 4, probably even more from boss alone. There was not a nerf in any way, the only thing that changed is the balance.

Things that ACTUALLY CHANGED: a "Balance" like previously mentioned

-Less rooms in exchange of more bosses/mobs

-XP was increased in raids(due to more mobs) to be in par with others(haven't checked all yet, but most likely)

-Changed features in some room to make it longer; to allow more mobs respawn

-That's it ( as of I know)

Things that DIDN'T CHANGE:

-Drop rate of fragments

-RNG of each fragment you get

-Soul Stones

-Fragment of the Wise.

Also keep in mind that this has been around for one day. While it is possible, I don't think one is enough to *confirm* anything or even panicking about drop rate. What I've said previously is from what I got today, but I strongly dont think that there was even an attempt to buff or nerf anything in any way. In my own opinion, I'd say it is a good change because it seems this is just a "balance" to make all raid equal in some way.

Edit: Just to make sure you are also aware of this: Even if they revert it now, it'll eventually come back again. So regardless you will have to get use to it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Geis

Ah that communication issue. Yeah, I am so used to it form their other game, that I don't pay attention. to it I don't like it either, but knowing GF they just blame it on the developers.

I complained about this for years on another game they also publish. Nothing happend, so I'm at the ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ point regarding it. Not going to defend it of course, I would like more information in advanced as well. Although even the developer probably went "Shit!" about the raid thing.

Quote from Lilabelle

Quote from Silvery

There are mobs in every raid that are guaranteed to drop fragments. The number of guaranteed fragment dropping mobs got reduced in JH, BH and IC in exchange for shorter runtimes in the latter two.

The sub-bosses? They were not guaranteed, but most likely to drop them. Yes, they were removed in exchange of what we have now. However, the drop rate is still the same. From what I previously saw in the comments above, they were confusing it with drop rate.

Sub-boss (or what you call them)possible fragment drop, from what I remember:

-No Fragment

-normal fragment x2 (most likely)

-Fragment (common) (less likely)

-Fragment (refined) (rare)

-Soulstone LV1-2 (not often)

Drop rate still the same. The amount of fragments you could possibly were reduced by a small amount(day one).

If I recall correctly, this was also released recently in KR, perhaps. IT is still new, there are fixes to come and will we get them eventually even if we revert the changes.

Just come to ask where is my sweet mad manic? I saw the name on notification but I can't find it anywhere.

Quote from Silvery

First of all, to those panicking, the drop rate wasn't *nerfed nor buffed.* Keep in mind that fragment are still RNG, and the average per run is about the SAME it was before. A certain Fragment number NOT guaranteed, you can get from 0 to 4, probably even more from boss alone. There was not a nerf in any way, the only thing that changed is the balance.

Things that DIDN'T CHANGE:

-Drop rate of fragments

-RNG of each fragment you get

-Soul Stones

-Fragment of the Wise.

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Ok, u mentioned that they didn't change the drop rate of fragments, and u said average per run is the SAME as before. Tbh it doesn't make any sense, let's take JH as an example, since it seems like u r running JH. JH have 2 bosses that drop frags in before, now only the final boss drop frags. Assume u r unlucky every run, basically u get 4 inferior from ea run before, but now u only get 2. I have no idea what average u r talking about.

Quote from Silvery

Things that ACTUALLY CHANGED: a "Balance" like previously mentioned

-Less rooms in exchange of more bosses/mobs

-XP was increased in raids(due to more mobs) to be in par with others(haven't checked all yet, but most likely)

-Changed features in some room to make it longer; to allow more mobs respawn

-That's it ( as of I know)

I believe u forget to state 'Reduce bosses that drop fragments'

Quote from Silvery

Drop rate still the same. The amount of fragments you could possibly were reduced by a small amount(day one).

With your statement above, it's not possibly, it's 100%.

Btw, I am not confusing about drop rate.

If the drop rate has been lowered, which it really sounds like it is, that's more than enough reason to revert. We don't need the market prices to go even higher because the rarity on an already rare set of items was increased unnecessarily, exacerbating the already inflating prices and artificial rarity, widening the gap even further between the people who have everything and the people who don't.

Quote from solace

If the drop rate has been lowered, which it really sounds like it is, that's more than enough reason to revert. We don't need the market prices to go even higher because the rarity on an already rare set of items was increased unnecessarily, exacerbating the already inflating prices and artificial rarity, widening the gap even further between the people who have everything and the people who don't.

orrrrrr they could just fix the drop rates.

Edit 2: For those in this discussion, Gameforge has decided to keep the raids condensed as they are now.

Hi,

We tested the raids extensively.

Solo to three-man drop rates seem to have gone down (as in chance to drop fragment). Previously, these were the numbers applicable to each of the raids:

LC: 2

JH: 2
BH: 3
IC: 5

These are the number of special mobs, including the boss, that have potential to drop Soulstone fragments. Meaning the number of special mobs that have a chance, at all, to drop either Inferior, Common, or Refined pieces. This does not include the clear reward, which does not guarantee, but can also give any of those three. Post condensed raids, these are the new numbers:

LC: 2

JH: 1

BH: 2

IC: 4

We spent a lot of time testing each one through numerous tests in a 4-man environment, with little variation between runs since 4-man nearly (but not absolutely) definitely drops Soulstone fragments with a very high rate. In all tests, all four of us received Soulstone fragments from consistently the same mob each time. Therein, LC was the only dungeon technically unaffected in terms of loot.

In terms of clear time, all dungeons except for JH are shorter. JH is longer because the initial phase takes one additional full minute and the Mad Manic room takes longer as well (granted with a party, you can split up and clear this room quickly). Mainly the first timed area adds a lot of time to the run.

LC is faster and can be cleared faster, but the firewall room is brutal now that the last hallway in it has fire walls indiscriminately. BH is MUCH better, though the boss is significantly more challenging since there's no safe zone by default against the blasts. IC is an oddball, since they throw a lot of elites randomly into the sections now. The removal of the dog room removes a lot of time, the removal of the scorpion room barely affects the time. An efficient party should clear it up to 2-3 minutes faster than they were before, for 20% less drops.

This change is good for those parties who really struggled to spend all their energy, especially on half energy weekend. It's bad for those who were already able to spend it all each day, or play in smaller groups or without VIP at level 55.

Edit: In terms of EXP, JH did provide the most, if it's any consolation (for rank grinders). Followed by BH, followed by IC, followed by LC. JH has the best time:XP ratio of the four.

Do not forget that you drop MORE fragments per boss/small-bosses. You get now 2x refined fragments when this thing drop and i could drop sometimes 3 common from bosses while this never happened during "old raids". Overall fragments number didn't change that much, there is less mobs that drops fragments but the number of fragments got increased a bit. So you drop in total pretty much the same.

Quote from TayZeur

Do not forget that you drop MORE fragments per boss/small-bosses. You get now 2x refined fragments when this thing drop and i could drop sometimes 3 common from bosses while this never happened during "old raids". Overall fragments number didn't change that much, there is less mobs that drops fragments but the number of fragments got increased a bit. So you drop in total pretty much the same.

This is no different. Even on stream, there were occasions where I dropped double Refined from these enemies in the old raids. The number of fragments dropped generally did not change. On the usual drops it's either x2 Inferior, x1-2 Common, or x1 Refined. In special instances, you'll drop more, but that applied to old raids as well.

Quote from TayZeur

Do not forget that you drop MORE fragments per boss/small-bosses. You get now 2x refined fragments when this thing drop and i could drop sometimes 3 common from bosses while this never happened during "old raids". Overall fragments number didn't change that much, there is less mobs that drops fragments but the number of fragments got increased a bit. So you drop in total pretty much the same.

No, you had a chance to get 2 refined or 3 common or 4 inferior fragments from bosses, it's not anything new.

As it has been said in the post higher up, drops from individual runs went down, but raids are shorter/give more dzennies/exp. While it's too early for me to say anything, from first glance it looks like you gain dzennies and exp faster and the same amount of fragments in the same amount of time. You are required to spend more energy, but I feel whoever can spend 330+ energy a day, can probably afford to buy VIPs from the market.

Quote from Saintone

Edit 2: For those in this discussion, Gameforge has decided to keep the raids condensed as they are now.

Hi,

We tested the raids extensively.

Solo to three-man drop rates seem to have gone down (as in chance to drop fragment). Previously, these were the numbers applicable to each of the raids:

LC: 2

JH: 2
BH: 3
IC: 5

These are the number of special mobs, including the boss, that have potential to drop Soulstone fragments. Meaning the number of special mobs that have a chance, at all, to drop either Inferior, Common, or Refined pieces. This does not include the clear reward, which does not guarantee, but can also give any of those three. Post condensed raids, these are the new numbers:

LC: 2

JH: 1

BH: 2

IC: 4

We spent a lot of time testing each one through numerous tests in a 4-man environment, with little variation between runs since 4-man nearly (but not absolutely) definitely drops Soulstone fragments with a very high rate. In all tests, all four of us received Soulstone fragments from consistently the same mob each time. Therein, LC was the only dungeon technically unaffected in terms of loot.

In terms of clear time, all dungeons except for JH are shorter. JH is longer because the initial phase takes one additional full minute and the Mad Manic room takes longer as well (granted with a party, you can split up and clear this room quickly). Mainly the first timed area adds a lot of time to the run.

LC is faster and can be cleared faster, but the firewall room is brutal now that the last hallway in it has fire walls indiscriminately. BH is MUCH better, though the boss is significantly more challenging since there's no safe zone by default against the blasts. IC is an oddball, since they throw a lot of elites randomly into the sections now. The removal of the dog room removes a lot of time, the removal of the scorpion room barely affects the time. An efficient party should clear it up to 2-3 minutes faster than they were before, for 20% less drops.

This change is good for those parties who really struggled to spend all their energy, especially on half energy weekend. It's bad for those who were already able to spend it all each day, or play in smaller groups or without VIP at level 55.

Edit: In terms of EXP, JH did provide the most, if it's any consolation (for rank grinders). Followed by BH, followed by IC, followed by LC. JH has the best time:XP ratio of the four.

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have you tested the average cube drop rate in each raid? All I've been hearing about is the frag drops got nerfed but I feel like the cubes got seriously nerfed as well

Quote from Cater

Quote from TayZeur

Do not forget that you drop MORE fragments per boss/small-bosses. You get now 2x refined fragments when this thing drop and i could drop sometimes 3 common from bosses while this never happened during "old raids". Overall fragments number didn't change that much, there is less mobs that drops fragments but the number of fragments got increased a bit. So you drop in total pretty much the same.

No, you had a chance to get 2 refined or 3 common or 4 inferior fragments from bosses, it's not anything new.

As it has been said in the post higher up, drops from individual runs went down, but raids are shorter/give more dzennies/exp. While it's too early for me to say anything, from first glance it looks like you gain dzennies and exp faster and the same amount of fragments in the same amount of time. You are required to spend more energy, but I feel whoever can spend 330+ energy a day, can probably afford to buy VIPs from the market.

I did a lot and i never got 2 refined and 3 common. Atleast on EU, FR server. I was getting 1 refined, 2 common, and 4 inferior so i dont know but im getting more frags.