Weapon upgrade chips soon 100m? (EN Candus)

Quote from Vitae

The final thing I was to leave on this thread is that I find it humorous that people believe it is healthy for a small group of in-game billionaires to completely dictate the prices of certain materials.

Yet you are completely opposed to the idea of gameforge also controlling the prices of certain market items.

You're entitled to your own opinion but my god is that backwards.

Like fine if you are opposed to anyone completely dictating prices of items but you aren't opposed to it all. If anything it seems like you're threatened by the idea of gameforge locking prices because you little community inflation exploitation has been countered.

That is like ... really .. low hanging fruit.

Try instead of waving that sickle and hammer flag actually use calculator on your OS and fare at market better.

I have literally spend zero on selling premium items (exept thoose that i have bought on market) yet somehow managed to stack G & S vip for few months forward, stocked on lv9 soulstone, few skill tree resets and other prem jumbo. It's crazy how easy it's to play the market in this game.

Also what is backwards? People that spend most time/money get to top and peeps who least stay at bottom? Gee, so backwards.

I'm saying it's backwards to not let one group regulate prices but okay for another group to regulate prices. It's a game, and people like you are driving it into the dirt because people are unable to get anywhere because prices have inflated to such heights

Quote from Vitae

I'm saying it's backwards to not let one group regulate prices but okay for another group to regulate prices. It's a game, and people like you are driving it into the dirt because people are unable to get anywhere because prices have inflated to such heights

Wait what? It's not backwards to allow one group to regulate prices but not the other? Dude, what are you smoking i want some too. Also blaming people for adapting to ever changing market and blaming me for inflation? How? What? When?

Seriously dude, puff puff pass.

If anyone controls the market ''of things'' in game it's the one with most of it, or literally have monopolized the source or something. To stay loyal to topic, it's wuc's. I have 52 wuc's currently listed on En candus. right now there is about 9 pages of Wuc's listed from 19m up to 100m. I didn't count even half of them but there was easily about 900+ wucs on market right now, so lets just assume that there is approximately 1000 wucs on market. I have equal chance of them dropping as anyone else in the game, so we can just forget the source of the items and ignore it's aviability, since only way to get em is to play the game and farm for them. So RIGHT as of now, I currently control roughtly 5,2% of current wuc's on market. That's roughly 1/20 of current market. After thoose are sold and used, i have no stake at market. Done, now i own nothing. By your own words, i now bow to the ones who have it. And unless i want to rely on rng and spend my limited time, i have to be ''bowing'' to the people selling them, agree to use specified amount DZ and buy on lowest offered price or actually go and play the game to get some.

It's kinda funny that none of prices are forced, it's ALMOST LIKE NOBODY OWNS IT: If Price is too high, you wont buy it. If it's too low, you deffenetely want to have it since you are getting more for less. If you pass, i guarantee someone else will buy it off and sell higher. It's ALMOST LIKE people have choices and can influence the outcome.

I would understand your Q_Q about market if everything essential would be only available on premium shop, with no way to obtain it in game, without spending cash. But as it stands, this smells awfully like pointing fingers trying to blame everyone around with even slightest advantage (which they earned one way or the other) which you most likely don't have.

With regards to loop hole, or aka gold buying it should be punished and sellers should be driven out. I truly hope GF is taking somekind of action aganist that. Exept that ... so far nothing has changed (at least for the better) and there is no other signs of gold selling stopping. Again, i remind you this has been going for months now.

As for topic, i feel like everything that should be said is said, and WUC's prices stabilizing atleast for the moment it's really either because it finally ran into wall with Anti-destructs being the new bottleneck, or we are just having more than enough of WUC's to go around atm. As for economy, well all i can say we ended up with inflated dz that keeps loosing it's worth with every day.

Quote from Rin

Quote from Nope

they won't nerf again because playerbase keep decreasing unless they want make this game p2w and whales will complain the server is dead and become lonely housewife

That is questionable. When only a few select players who were the first 55s knew about akashi farming and the OP 30-50 cards/anti-destructs a day, with most of the playerbase being low level, nothing was done about it.

The moment everyone hit 55 needing to upgrade their gear, they conveniently removed it.

Gameforge is moniitoring these forums, just look at the "akashi box" scam thread where someone mentioned that the 50 pack of akashis were essentially the same price as the limited akashi box and the free akashis in the akashi box were supposedly discounted from a value of '7150' or something but that implies that 50 akashi cards were more expensive, which they weren't. The moment that thread appeared, they conveniently removed the 50 akashi card discount from the cash shop, likewise with nerfing alt farming from 24 hrs to 1 week; this was also removed in the other versions as someone publicized this.

The micro-transaction models entails paying for game control, or skipping farming an untenable amount of hours or getting rid of annoyances, nickeling and diming for everything - so if they boosted the WUC farm rate, I wouldn't be surprised if they nerfed the strength expansion ticket quest onto ruin fortress, making it impossible as a F2P to get your nice +8 weapon without spending months.

Need efficient gear? I farmed Suzie and rookie raids without gear sets. It really isn't that difficult, yes GC is a different story but GC shouldn't be the only farm method for WUCs.

Also using peoples situations like "I cant farm this, I'm busy" doesn't mean they should have any sort of permission to break the rules by purchasing gold entirely screw over the community to satisfy their own greed. I understand where you are coming from but if you dont have the time to put into games like these, why play games that require a lot of investment instead of easy drop in drop out games that dont require intensive grind?

I understand most of your points is basically suggesting the community needs to suffer bc some people cant invest that much time. It's like being in a multiplayer match: Lets say you're playing a free for all game. You need to go to family gathering/dinner whatever. So you expect everyone to drop what they're doing and suffer because you aren't available?

If gameforge were to compensate the players who can't play enough in the week, there would be no insentive to grind that game because you'd be given 2 options

1: I could grind the game and earn my stuff normally which is what a game like soulworker is intended to make you do.

2: I'm going to buy gold or buy SC to make a lot of dz, then purposefully inflate the market so everyone has to stay on my pace.

A game like soulworker isn't intended for you to spend 300 hours per month for you to freeload on the company's servers, it is intended to nickel and dime you for everything you need to progress so that only the hardcore high-spending population remains. Do you think the top billion dollar microtransaction games on smartphones in revenue care about your petty feelings about other people in an online environment about your relative gear levels, relative player stat levels, relative building levels and everything else? No. They only care to put frustrations before your eyes so that you can remove them with money. Game studios and businesses aren't there to platter you with infinite luxuries, WUCs and instant end-game gear because then you wouldn't play the game (just look at how unsuccessful private servers with high rates are in any game), and this is what I was saying earlier about 'whales' quitting earlier when they run out of content to whale on. If you all would simply pay up more, then there would be no need for the F2P model to dominate the industry, but the fact of matter is, the F2P model is the most successful in terms of keeping a business alive, when the game has little to no content - and if you want to change that, you can do so. Just pay up enough so that we can all enjoy a publicly sponsored server with nice drop rates, nice upgrade rates and everything associated with it like weekly updates. If I had the money, I would sponsor the 'server' or publisher, or 'bribe' - but of course to get to that point, what do you need to do in real life..? Make money, and not being greedy doesn't make you money. Not caring about inputs and outputs would never get you to that point of self-sustainability.

If the spending conversion rate was not 3-10% but instead 30-70% like in Asia, do you think they would have to make upgrade rates so garbage, do you think they would need to limit your inventory to literally one garbage bag, do you think they would need to charge an arm and a leg for exclusive outfits.. they would not. Once again, people don't play for the feelings of other people, or the majority don't. Do you see level 55s helping low levels level up? Not with the in-game system of EXP deterrence. Do you see people in the same social strata of gear levels helping those lower? Just how many people and how much time investment do you need to spend on helping every individual player to get to the end game, and how many giveaways of WUCs at 1 DZ is needed before people can enjoy the end game. Chances are, your altruism would end up in utter pointlessness with players quitting long before they even get to the end game and all that wasted effort for nothing. The main point is, you cannot change human behavior, but you can design systems to entice them to do things differently; just try and get your significant other to change their habits and everything about them, and see where it lands you. Nowhere. MMOs like this cater to the 18-25 male audience, who are probably more risk-taking, impulsive and selfish than other distributions of the population - so game studios who improperly design/localize their games end up out of business when they cannot take into factors/traits of said demographic in their business model.

It has nothing to do with the selfishness of individual players caring about other players, when you play a game you want the best gears, the best weapons, the highest level and so on forth.. or at least according to Gameforge's academic paper on power user players that's what 18-25 males want the most. So I am not sure where you are getting this silly idea about other people not caring about gear is coming from; I simply said that GF is losing profits on DZ buyers to upgrade their gear when they can simply buy those items in the cash shop, that has no relevance whatsoever to other players if whales decide to solo-play their game and CS their way to god-tier hood status. My suggestion alone if implemented would in fact be beneficial to F2Per, because WUCs are probably the most liquid thing on the market compared to all other SC items, and if there's a proper recognized channel for stuff, then people will use that instead. Why do you think black markets around the world exist when 'official' rates for things are posted? Are you going to change $1 currency to $1000 of garbage currency when the black market is $100,000? Black markets exist because human nature. People want the greatest quantity of things for the least amount of input - so just monetize that and cater to it as a proper F2P business. I don't really see what you're getting at, I simply am suggesting to expand the elasticity curve of demand to be fulfilled by low-income, low-spending players too.

Buying SC doesn't inflate the market, if you properly read my post about economic principles, you would know that. Maybe you should try buying 100,000 SC and spamming the market with outfits and see if you manage to sell any at the same price points to F2P who don't have the DZ to do so, and whether you give away your in real life money for the lowest returns in game, or whether you give away your time to the lowest effectiveness charities/things you value about (hint, most people would not unless they themselves were in a position to do so like 'retirement status' or successful 50s business owner); in fact the merchant who resells hair colours and furniture on NA has a hard time selling to F2Pers at higher price points because they don't buy DZ, and is stuck with stock that no one wants because whales who buy DZ also buy SC and have no need for resold SC items on the market.

I don't know about you, but if you have a 100% chance to buy your lovely things at 5x cheaper rate than what other people are offering, why in the world would you not take the chance to do so; are you going to personally do a 5% chance to lose 800$ gambling machine or take the $200 guaranteed epic loot box. You already see this selfishness in the community when they complain about hairstyle prices, item crafting requirements - it is ironic that you are proposing more WUCs per farming hours, which has a net effect on alt farming and GF's bottom line. Who knew that benefiting yourself also means someone else suffers at times. Two vending machines, same products, same things, one is cheaper. The community is not at fault, nor is the individual rational player. It is simply poor game design and poor publisher choices that lead to the circumstances we have today, and what we see. That is all.

Trying to make everyone into heartful, passionate people who give away all their things, sell stuff as the same cost-basis of production would in fact make society worse off. When you spend more resources for things, and waste more of your time into making $, real life or in game for stuff you don't want, you end up destroying value, lifetime, energy and everything associated with it. It's like having a monopoly on water, and making everyone suffer. Competition exists to make things more tenable to people so they have more free time in their lives to do other things. If you want to put people on an equal playing field, you can -but don't expect everyone to climb to the top in day one, and don't expect people to not use all their willpower in being efficient at what they do. In order to help others, you must first help yourself. If you yourself cannot get to godhood farming status, then you yourself cannot be in a position to give away WUCs to new players - if you cannot understand this simple principle, then you will never climb to the top. And most people don't really care about climbing to the top, except those that complain about it being hard but don't expend the time or money to do so and then complain about other people who do have the time and money.

Some of the most prominent streamers of the game were only able to give away billions of DZ in items/currency because they spent some forms of cash (for SC) to sell for DZ; according to you, however, these people should not that given opportunity because they denied other players of those items, and further, according to you, people who spend significant time farming their gears to efficiently earn items that they sell for DZ to buy other items that they want should be selling them at a lower cost basis so they end up farming 10x more hours to get the things they want when they sell stuff for DZ, and furthermore, everyone should be playing the RNG gambling machine with 5-10% chance to be burning $300-$800 or 300-500 productive time hours of your life because it is fair to do so (are the implications of your principle of 'being charitable to everyone, the community first and foremost', where every single of those hours spent on the game could of been a career advancement, or family time, where every dollar could of been saved for other fruitful endeavors rather than gambling micro-transaction games, and this would also mean if they did this, lowered wages for these game studios, so less F2P games, and the cycle of complaints go on and on and on). There is no action that you do that does not cause a negative externality to other individuals; you either deprive someone of time, opportunity, energy or money whenever you do something, or to yourself. Expecting people to compound these negative externalities onto oneself is probably the furthest principle I myself would expect anyone to abide to, and last thing any living rational sentient being should do.

At the end of the day, some whales just want to get away from their high-paying stress job and lush around their epic gears in front of virtual friends for some gratification, but you have to deny these individuals of that satisfaction. Good job, you ended up hurting someone in the process.

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You seem to miss my point, it's not about GF or other business does not care about f2p feeling or not, but they care if whales are leaving because server is dead. Whales are lonely to play between among themselves only when f2p are leaving too.

And you are saying by giving WUC whales age getting all they want so they quit when they max. You should not say that when even a +9 weapon takes Ag.e.s to achieve. AND whales got plenty of gears to +9 their Armor, which could take thousand of ANTIs. And that's just 1 full set of armor, in this game we have multiple sets to go, namely pvp set, dark bone set, Aurith, primal,and vicarious set. And Lion Game makes it more interesting by making a SET EFFECT for +9 things, those are for whaes. Even King of Whales don't want to go that far. F2P usually would dream a +8 only, given they invest tons of time to farm antis (which no longer the case, I semi-quit farming because of too much time waste). I don't have the luxury to write lengthy of essay though

Quote from Nope

Quote from Rin

Quote from Nope

they won't nerf again because playerbase keep decreasing unless they want make this game p2w and whales will complain the server is dead and become lonely housewife

That is questionable. When only a few select players who were the first 55s knew about akashi farming and the OP 30-50 cards/anti-destructs a day, with most of the playerbase being low level, nothing was done about it.

The moment everyone hit 55 needing to upgrade their gear, they conveniently removed it.

Gameforge is moniitoring these forums, just look at the "akashi box" scam thread where someone mentioned that the 50 pack of akashis were essentially the same price as the limited akashi box and the free akashis in the akashi box were supposedly discounted from a value of '7150' or something but that implies that 50 akashi cards were more expensive, which they weren't. The moment that thread appeared, they conveniently removed the 50 akashi card discount from the cash shop, likewise with nerfing alt farming from 24 hrs to 1 week; this was also removed in the other versions as someone publicized this.

The micro-transaction models entails paying for game control, or skipping farming an untenable amount of hours or getting rid of annoyances, nickeling and diming for everything - so if they boosted the WUC farm rate, I wouldn't be surprised if they nerfed the strength expansion ticket quest onto ruin fortress, making it impossible as a F2P to get your nice +8 weapon without spending months.

Need efficient gear? I farmed Suzie and rookie raids without gear sets. It really isn't that difficult, yes GC is a different story but GC shouldn't be the only farm method for WUCs.

Also using peoples situations like "I cant farm this, I'm busy" doesn't mean they should have any sort of permission to break the rules by purchasing gold entirely screw over the community to satisfy their own greed. I understand where you are coming from but if you dont have the time to put into games like these, why play games that require a lot of investment instead of easy drop in drop out games that dont require intensive grind?

I understand most of your points is basically suggesting the community needs to suffer bc some people cant invest that much time. It's like being in a multiplayer match: Lets say you're playing a free for all game. You need to go to family gathering/dinner whatever. So you expect everyone to drop what they're doing and suffer because you aren't available?

If gameforge were to compensate the players who can't play enough in the week, there would be no insentive to grind that game because you'd be given 2 options

1: I could grind the game and earn my stuff normally which is what a game like soulworker is intended to make you do.

2: I'm going to buy gold or buy SC to make a lot of dz, then purposefully inflate the market so everyone has to stay on my pace.

A game like soulworker isn't intended for you to spend 300 hours per month for you to freeload on the company's servers, it is intended to nickel and dime you for everything you need to progress so that only the hardcore high-spending population remains. Do you think the top billion dollar microtransaction games on smartphones in revenue care about your petty feelings about other people in an online environment about your relative gear levels, relative player stat levels, relative building levels and everything else? No. They only care to put frustrations before your eyes so that you can remove them with money. Game studios and businesses aren't there to platter you with infinite luxuries, WUCs and instant end-game gear because then you wouldn't play the game (just look at how unsuccessful private servers with high rates are in any game), and this is what I was saying earlier about 'whales' quitting earlier when they run out of content to whale on. If you all would simply pay up more, then there would be no need for the F2P model to dominate the industry, but the fact of matter is, the F2P model is the most successful in terms of keeping a business alive, when the game has little to no content - and if you want to change that, you can do so. Just pay up enough so that we can all enjoy a publicly sponsored server with nice drop rates, nice upgrade rates and everything associated with it like weekly updates. If I had the money, I would sponsor the 'server' or publisher, or 'bribe' - but of course to get to that point, what do you need to do in real life..? Make money, and not being greedy doesn't make you money. Not caring about inputs and outputs would never get you to that point of self-sustainability.

If the spending conversion rate was not 3-10% but instead 30-70% like in Asia, do you think they would have to make upgrade rates so garbage, do you think they would need to limit your inventory to literally one garbage bag, do you think they would need to charge an arm and a leg for exclusive outfits.. they would not. Once again, people don't play for the feelings of other people, or the majority don't. Do you see level 55s helping low levels level up? Not with the in-game system of EXP deterrence. Do you see people in the same social strata of gear levels helping those lower? Just how many people and how much time investment do you need to spend on helping every individual player to get to the end game, and how many giveaways of WUCs at 1 DZ is needed before people can enjoy the end game. Chances are, your altruism would end up in utter pointlessness with players quitting long before they even get to the end game and all that wasted effort for nothing. The main point is, you cannot change human behavior, but you can design systems to entice them to do things differently; just try and get your significant other to change their habits and everything about them, and see where it lands you. Nowhere. MMOs like this cater to the 18-25 male audience, who are probably more risk-taking, impulsive and selfish than other distributions of the population - so game studios who improperly design/localize their games end up out of business when they cannot take into factors/traits of said demographic in their business model.

It has nothing to do with the selfishness of individual players caring about other players, when you play a game you want the best gears, the best weapons, the highest level and so on forth.. or at least according to Gameforge's academic paper on power user players that's what 18-25 males want the most. So I am not sure where you are getting this silly idea about other people not caring about gear is coming from; I simply said that GF is losing profits on DZ buyers to upgrade their gear when they can simply buy those items in the cash shop, that has no relevance whatsoever to other players if whales decide to solo-play their game and CS their way to god-tier hood status. My suggestion alone if implemented would in fact be beneficial to F2Per, because WUCs are probably the most liquid thing on the market compared to all other SC items, and if there's a proper recognized channel for stuff, then people will use that instead. Why do you think black markets around the world exist when 'official' rates for things are posted? Are you going to change $1 currency to $1000 of garbage currency when the black market is $100,000? Black markets exist because human nature. People want the greatest quantity of things for the least amount of input - so just monetize that and cater to it as a proper F2P business. I don't really see what you're getting at, I simply am suggesting to expand the elasticity curve of demand to be fulfilled by low-income, low-spending players too.

Buying SC doesn't inflate the market, if you properly read my post about economic principles, you would know that. Maybe you should try buying 100,000 SC and spamming the market with outfits and see if you manage to sell any at the same price points to F2P who don't have the DZ to do so, and whether you give away your in real life money for the lowest returns in game, or whether you give away your time to the lowest effectiveness charities/things you value about (hint, most people would not unless they themselves were in a position to do so like 'retirement status' or successful 50s business owner); in fact the merchant who resells hair colours and furniture on NA has a hard time selling to F2Pers at higher price points because they don't buy DZ, and is stuck with stock that no one wants because whales who buy DZ also buy SC and have no need for resold SC items on the market.

I don't know about you, but if you have a 100% chance to buy your lovely things at 5x cheaper rate than what other people are offering, why in the world would you not take the chance to do so; are you going to personally do a 5% chance to lose 800$ gambling machine or take the $200 guaranteed epic loot box. You already see this selfishness in the community when they complain about hairstyle prices, item crafting requirements - it is ironic that you are proposing more WUCs per farming hours, which has a net effect on alt farming and GF's bottom line. Who knew that benefiting yourself also means someone else suffers at times. Two vending machines, same products, same things, one is cheaper. The community is not at fault, nor is the individual rational player. It is simply poor game design and poor publisher choices that lead to the circumstances we have today, and what we see. That is all.

Trying to make everyone into heartful, passionate people who give away all their things, sell stuff as the same cost-basis of production would in fact make society worse off. When you spend more resources for things, and waste more of your time into making $, real life or in game for stuff you don't want, you end up destroying value, lifetime, energy and everything associated with it. It's like having a monopoly on water, and making everyone suffer. Competition exists to make things more tenable to people so they have more free time in their lives to do other things. If you want to put people on an equal playing field, you can -but don't expect everyone to climb to the top in day one, and don't expect people to not use all their willpower in being efficient at what they do. In order to help others, you must first help yourself. If you yourself cannot get to godhood farming status, then you yourself cannot be in a position to give away WUCs to new players - if you cannot understand this simple principle, then you will never climb to the top. And most people don't really care about climbing to the top, except those that complain about it being hard but don't expend the time or money to do so and then complain about other people who do have the time and money.

Some of the most prominent streamers of the game were only able to give away billions of DZ in items/currency because they spent some forms of cash (for SC) to sell for DZ; according to you, however, these people should not that given opportunity because they denied other players of those items, and further, according to you, people who spend significant time farming their gears to efficiently earn items that they sell for DZ to buy other items that they want should be selling them at a lower cost basis so they end up farming 10x more hours to get the things they want when they sell stuff for DZ, and furthermore, everyone should be playing the RNG gambling machine with 5-10% chance to be burning $300-$800 or 300-500 productive time hours of your life because it is fair to do so (are the implications of your principle of 'being charitable to everyone, the community first and foremost', where every single of those hours spent on the game could of been a career advancement, or family time, where every dollar could of been saved for other fruitful endeavors rather than gambling micro-transaction games, and this would also mean if they did this, lowered wages for these game studios, so less F2P games, and the cycle of complaints go on and on and on). There is no action that you do that does not cause a negative externality to other individuals; you either deprive someone of time, opportunity, energy or money whenever you do something, or to yourself. Expecting people to compound these negative externalities onto oneself is probably the furthest principle I myself would expect anyone to abide to, and last thing any living rational sentient being should do.

At the end of the day, some whales just want to get away from their high-paying stress job and lush around their epic gears in front of virtual friends for some gratification, but you have to deny these individuals of that satisfaction. Good job, you ended up hurting someone in the process.

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You seem to miss my point, it's not about GF or other business does not care about f2p feeling or not, but they care if whales are leaving because server is dead. Whales are lonely to play between among themselves only when f2p are leaving too.

And you are saying by giving WUC whales age getting all they want so they quit when they max. You should not say that when even a +9 weapon takes Ag.e.s to achieve. AND whales got plenty of gears to +9 their Armor, which could take thousand of ANTIs. And that's just 1 full set of armor, in this game we have multiple sets to go, namely pvp set, dark bone set, Aurith, primal,and vicarious set. And Lion Game makes it more interesting by making a SET EFFECT for +9 things, those are for whaes. Even King of Whales don't want to go that far. F2P usually would dream a +8 only, given they invest tons of time to farm antis (which no longer the case, I semi-quit farming because of too much time waste). I don't have the luxury to write lengthy of essay though

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True, some people spend more, some less. The casual whale is sufficient with a plus 8 and plus 6 armor. The hyperwhale gets plus 9 maxed everything. Yes, I know people who expend $20,000-$200,000 on each individual game; anyhow, that's not the point. I wouldn't say whales are leaving because the server is dead, considering the guilds on the server all know each other and we practically play together and see everyone everyday at d6 boss and gc. Everyone acknowledges that the game gets more boring day by day spamming dungeons and raids that you already have the gear for. In terms of F2P, I'd have to say that most of us don't really meet or see the other 90% of the playerbase in RF or below, unless we are doing rookie raids. Yes, whales do acknowledge that the servers are dying, and as long as content keeps coming out, people will play together. If other whales lose interest in the game, then those whales will also quit, that will happen regardless of the state of other F2Ps on the server.

Each gear check level of a game will lead to filtration of people who are too bored to stick around in the interim updates, and people who cannot catch up in gear, as well as people who no longer find any value in playing - this is why content compression happens after for every f2p game within a year; I see this in nearly every 'f2p' game, with the remaining core population being 200-400 people who play on the same server for a year, or two or more. That is simply the natural consequence of the game, and there is nothing you can do about it unless you turn it into a high quality high-content game that is variable everyday and offers something exciting or new to whales/f2p. The only way for that to happen is increased revenue from either an increased amount of new incoming players, or squeezing from the remaining few who choose to stay behind.

The amount of updates, game support staff, and everything associated with game longevity is proportional to its revenue stream. You don't see 'e-game Live MMO', 'catalogued 24/7 live support', '6-tiered dungeon raiding' and all those nice features with steady-revenue subscription large triple AAA titles, because a game studio/publisher of 15 people or less is not going to be funded with tens of millions of dollars, or hundreds.

People get what they wish for. No interest in grinding? Just looking for a quick fix? Well, that already removes half of new players. An addendum of soloing to level 55, and having to + things to atrocious levels filters another 75%. Filter after filter, layer by layer, non-hardcore, non-power users, non-paying users are removed from the game. I already saw this scenario since day 1 of starting a level 1 character on this game - it isn't hard to see, it's pretty implicit the moment you step in a korean grinder MMO. Either you spend money or you rack up the hours, that is all. There is no compromise, and there will never be one. People who keep arguing otherwise or spewing nonsensical nonsense and refuse to acknowledge the facts of reality will find themselves gravely disappointed.

Quote from Galpatchie

Quote from Vitae

I'm saying it's backwards to not let one group regulate prices but okay for another group to regulate prices. It's a game, and people like you are driving it into the dirt because people are unable to get anywhere because prices have inflated to such heights

Wait what? It's not backwards to allow one group to regulate prices but not the other? Dude, what are you smoking i want some too. Also blaming people for adapting to ever changing market and blaming me for inflation? How? What? When?

Seriously dude, puff puff pass.

If anyone controls the market ''of things'' in game it's the one with most of it, or literally have monopolized the source or something. To stay loyal to topic, it's wuc's. I have 52 wuc's currently listed on En candus. right now there is about 9 pages of Wuc's listed from 19m up to 100m. I didn't count even half of them but there was easily about 900+ wucs on market right now, so lets just assume that there is approximately 1000 wucs on market. I have equal chance of them dropping as anyone else in the game, so we can just forget the source of the items and ignore it's aviability, since only way to get em is to play the game and farm for them. So RIGHT as of now, I currently control roughtly 5,2% of current wuc's on market. That's roughly 1/20 of current market. After thoose are sold and used, i have no stake at market. Done, now i own nothing. By your own words, i now bow to the ones who have it. And unless i want to rely on rng and spend my limited time, i have to be ''bowing'' to the people selling them, agree to use specified amount DZ and buy on lowest offered price or actually go and play the game to get some.

It's kinda funny that none of prices are forced, it's ALMOST LIKE NOBODY OWNS IT: If Price is too high, you wont buy it. If it's too low, you deffenetely want to have it since you are getting more for less. If you pass, i guarantee someone else will buy it off and sell higher. It's ALMOST LIKE people have choices and can influence the outcome.

I would understand your Q_Q about market if everything essential would be only available on premium shop, with no way to obtain it in game, without spending cash. But as it stands, this smells awfully like pointing fingers trying to blame everyone around with even slightest advantage (which they earned one way or the other) which you most likely don't have.

With regards to loop hole, or aka gold buying it should be punished and sellers should be driven out. I truly hope GF is taking somekind of action aganist that. Exept that ... so far nothing has changed (at least for the better) and there is no other signs of gold selling stopping. Again, i remind you this has been going for months now.

As for topic, i feel like everything that should be said is said, and WUC's prices stabilizing atleast for the moment it's really either because it finally ran into wall with Anti-destructs being the new bottleneck, or we are just having more than enough of WUC's to go around atm. As for economy, well all i can say we ended up with inflated dz that keeps loosing it's worth with every day.

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except I wasn't blaming you for inflation. I'm saying you're defending people who are abusing the market in such a way which is driving a portion of the community away

Quote from Riku

Quote from rj153

Quote from Riku

Quote from rj153

Best thing i can say is this. If it were not for the alts still being partially allowed you basically could have 1000 weapon upgrade chips and if your not swipping your cc then your not getting anti breaks. Leave GF alone. Plain and simple. Think its just a game if you want to. They are here to make money. Dont be silly. Ingame money can be grinded.

Exactly, well still have a way to get anti, buying it off Auction house from cash user. So cash user will get more dz to go buy WUC and EC as well. Then WUC and EC will raised too, and this thread will still be created except now maybe players want GF to give them a way to get Anti Destruction and probably complain at that time that this game is pay2win.

denied lol what incentive do they get out of selling them at a reasonable price? would you like an ss of how much an anti destruct cost in the market? The price of weapon upgrade chip is nothing in comparison lol

It has always been pay to win if you want to think of it that way. Only games like BDO can say there is not chance of that. Which is why most are here. (yes i play it to this is what i do when i just want to fish afk or craft etc there) There is no game thats not pay to win as you all call it. I call it play to play. I see not diff. in GF asking for 99 dollars for come currency vs the idiots asking 60 bucks for a ps or xbox game. None of it is free.

Only children speak of pay to win or those very immature adults. Because real life is pay to live. Not to say your one of those people. i just hate it when people say pay to win. Because just like they have bills to pay so does all businesses.

The irony is the same stupid people that scream pay to win are the very same imbeciles that pay 60 dollars or more every two weeks for a new ps or xbox games....wheres the logic. lol

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well yeah i totally agree with u, but to be honest if you are really free to play, i know my friends are free to play. They have 2 Haru and use up all 1200 EP everyday, and those market price didnt really bother them that much. Since they farm so much everyday and enjoying it. So the people that complain usually are the one that doesn't wanna put effort or as much time in and just want to get their gears up fast too. Just like my other post i wrote this bfore:

It's like in real world, you can't get quality, speed and cost all at once.

1.) You want good items and to get it fast, it will cost u a lot (Spend real money or a lot DZ).

2.) You want good items that cost you nothing, then don't expect to get it fast. go grind.

3.) You want fast and cheap, then don't expect to be able to get good quality item.

So right now, people that complain is type 2, they wanted goods (WUC/EC) that cost them nothing or very cheap price, so they have to go grind hard. But because they can't grind or lazy to grind and they dont wanna spend money, then they blame it on others then.

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Quote from Galpatchie

Quote from Vitae

The final thing I was to leave on this thread is that I find it humorous that people believe it is healthy for a small group of in-game billionaires to completely dictate the prices of certain materials.

Yet you are completely opposed to the idea of gameforge also controlling the prices of certain market items.

You're entitled to your own opinion but my god is that backwards.

Like fine if you are opposed to anyone completely dictating prices of items but you aren't opposed to it all. If anything it seems like you're threatened by the idea of gameforge locking prices because you little community inflation exploitation has been countered.

That is like ... really .. low hanging fruit.

Try instead of waving that sickle and hammer flag actually use calculator on your OS and fare at market better.

I have literally spend zero on selling premium items (exept thoose that i have bought on market) yet somehow managed to stack G & S vip for few months forward, stocked on lv9 soulstone, few skill tree resets and other prem jumbo. It's crazy how easy it's to play the market in this game.

Also what is backwards? People that spend most time/money get to top and peeps who least stay at bottom? Gee, so backwards.

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I 100% agree. and those are the people that really are not spending any cash that want it that way then they will go "the game is easy thats why i quit" Because honestly in this game like most. Getting that +8 +9 gear really all there is with endgame. theres not much else. So would GF kill their business? hell no lol I would not k

Quote from Vitae

I'm saying it's backwards to not let one group regulate prices but okay for another group to regulate prices. It's a game, and people like you are driving it into the dirt because people are unable to get anywhere because prices have inflated to such heights

see this is why i want ashes of creation to come out. because they already know and have stated to people it will be a player driven econmy so if you wanna go farm instances good for you. But when you want to but potions or weapons that are crafted. Well guess what? Ya have to make us merchants compete. However in this game people are so impatient its like slaughtering sheep. So hell no its not GF fault they are simply just letting the game play out as it is.

I loved BDO and hated it at the same time because or the cap there was for item selling. People have tons of gold i want some of it but ehh oh well. For those not willing to get off their ass an farm the WUC thank you, thank you. Because im not clearing GC on a daily basis charging 999999999 for a weapon thats with decent stats. So hell no fucks given none on "i wanna up grade". This is not a batter of the lower lvl players this is a battle of endgame. So basically it comes down to money.

this is a worthless topic honestly. Players create the economy not GF. Look if the content pushers back off on the endgame weapon sell prices it would go down. Guess what? No. and why should they? there is absolutely not one incentive for them to give a damn that a person cannot upgrade their weapon. This is nothing more than crying about how you wish the game is easier. Then if it was you would want the RNG to be better. Then if they do that you would want all of the drops in the game to be higher. Then if that it would be come to my house play my toon for me while im working.

This is honestly from the bottom of my heart a bullshit topic. Play the damn game learn that drops are not the only ways to get WUC and go from there. Not saying your stupid. Not saying you dont have skill. Just saying the lack of knowledge is apparent. I Get several WUC a day and not spending more than 400 energy. so no clue how this even became a topic. It just shows people lvl of ignorance in gaming. Because you do not understand something does not mean no one else does. Simply ask how.

Quote from rj153

this is a worthless topic honestly. Players create the economy not GF. Look if the content pushers back off on the endgame weapon sell prices it would go down. Guess what? No. and why should they? there is absolutely not one incentive for them to give a damn that a person cannot upgrade their weapon. This is nothing more than crying about how you wish the game is easier. Then if it was you would want the RNG to be better. Then if they do that you would want all of the drops in the game to be higher. Then if that it would be come to my house play my toon for me while im working.

This is honestly from the bottom of my heart a bullshit topic. Play the damn game learn that drops are not the only ways to get WUC and go from there. Not saying your stupid. Not saying you dont have skill. Just saying the lack of knowledge is apparent. I Get several WUC a day and not spending more than 400 energy. so no clue how this even became a topic. It just shows people lvl of ignorance in gaming. Because you do not understand something does not mean no one else does. Simply ask how.

And then a guy comes to the topic throwing a fart saying its worthless with 3.5 views and more than 100 replies in less than 5 days.

Also he informs us that we have lack of knowledge and WUC can be farmed!!!! Holy molly mate after 3 months playing the game i just learned that.All that time i thought they were growing on trees.

The topic is about PRICE RAISE OF WUC not that there is no way to acquire them in game(Bolded it and used caps so you can understand)

Have a nice day!!!

Quote from Deatharrow

Quote from rj153

this is a worthless topic honestly. Players create the economy not GF. Look if the content pushers back off on the endgame weapon sell prices it would go down. Guess what? No. and why should they? there is absolutely not one incentive for them to give a damn that a person cannot upgrade their weapon. This is nothing more than crying about how you wish the game is easier. Then if it was you would want the RNG to be better. Then if they do that you would want all of the drops in the game to be higher. Then if that it would be come to my house play my toon for me while im working.

This is honestly from the bottom of my heart a bullshit topic. Play the damn game learn that drops are not the only ways to get WUC and go from there. Not saying your stupid. Not saying you dont have skill. Just saying the lack of knowledge is apparent. I Get several WUC a day and not spending more than 400 energy. so no clue how this even became a topic. It just shows people lvl of ignorance in gaming. Because you do not understand something does not mean no one else does. Simply ask how.

And then a guy comes to the topic throwing a fart saying its worthless with 3.5 views and more than 100 replies in less than 5 days.

Also he informs us that we have lack of knowledge and WUC can be farmed!!!! Holy molly mate after 3 months playing the game i just learned that.All that time i thought they were growing on trees.

The topic is about PRICE RAISE OF WUC not that there is no way to acquire them in game(Bolded it and used caps so you can understand)

Have a nice day!!!

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i am sure i covered all of what you said. okay again IM SURE I COVERED ALL OF WHAT YOU SAID. In caps because i think you didnt read all of my post on the same topic. you have a good day as well! may you be blessed! ignorance is bliss for damn sure >.>

By the way because you have played for 3 months dont make you good nor does it mean you understand anything. I love to cook but that dont make me a chef does it? No. By the way im at almost 2k hours ingame so i guess i know everything huh? nope i dont. Either way lets say on topic. WUC is easy to farm and in your 3 months of playing with common sense you would know how. that price is high for those that are lazy. Simple as that.

But saying that common sense is not so common....given how you attacked me without reading all of my post. Just based off of me responding to another poster. sighs....

Quote from Rockyta

I would like to buy a costume but it is very expensive

hi Rock

I stopped holding DZ long ago, (so whomever is still complaining about prices, just trade assets/valuable items) still selling 1k SC for 17 Weapon Upgrade chips/2.5 ECs on NA. if you're on the server.

7-12 WUCs per 13 runs of GC, avg @8.77/day.

On SGVIP, that's 0.55 outfits in 2 days, or one weekend without SGVIP on half EP.

Or 3 days with vitamins/mat, or 4 days without.

390 minutes for 17 WUCs if 15m avg for 6.5 hours.

1,450 SC = 1.45 x 17 WUC = 24-25WUC

3 days of farming on SGVIP or 6 without, or 1 weekend + 2 weekdays for the 1,450 outfit. ~ 9.5 hours

Assuming 0.84 ECs per 400EP, or 20 rookie raids.

2.5 ECs x 1.45 = 3.63 ECs

3.63 ECs/0.84 EC per 400 EP = 4.32

4.32 x 20 = 86 rookie raids x 5 minutes = 430minutes or 7.2 hours.

When I suggest so that wuc to be sold on npc, I just forgot that there are some players that like to farm WUC, and play to farm wuc. Maybe they didn't read that no where in the suggestion to nerf the drop rate wup or make any change to how it was to be beside putting it on npc. So they got butt hurt.

Maybe they aren't clear that, GF is a business company, they care their micro transaction as some guy mentioned, do you think they care if you like to farm wuc, farming with nostalgic and slow feeling. They care if the business becomes fluid, player are buying lots of anti destruction, price of in-game item is stable, new players will not scare their pants when they see the price in in-game market.

The suggestion is for everyone, if you like to farm it slow, then go on. If you enjoy doing nothing else but farming wuc rather than other game content, then go on. The government won't stop you. BUT...just But. I caps BUTT because it might misspell or it spells too short or it is short that you might miss it. But why are you blocking other player buying wuc from npc? Is it getting wuc from npc seems free to you? Are other players disturbing your farming time? Or it is ruining your hidden agenda with wuc?

Let's say you like to go to a supermarket by walking. You enjoy your catwalk, it's nice to you. Then you see your friend Tet riding a motorcycle to go to the supermarket. Obviously he arrive earlier. You get discontent because by using motorcycle, Tet is faster, by paying a lot more than you. You complaint to government to disband motorcycle. Government say its their choice, and efficient too, you said not. You want everyone to catwalk to supermarket as you do. Why don't you want to ride motorcycle with Tet?

-: new section :-

The following is credited to rin (thanks rin) that give me some inspiration and I edit (in italic) some of the content:

A game like soulworker isn't intended for you to spend 300 hours per month for you to your own way on the company's servers, it is intended to nickel and dime you for everything you need to progress so that everyone including hardcore high-spending population remains. Do you think the top billion dollar microtransaction games on smartphones in revenue care about your petty feelings about other people in an online environment about your relative slow and nostalgic farming method, relative player stat levels, relative building levels and everything else? No. They only care to maximize good business model before your eyes so that you can both remove them with money or not. Game studios and businesses aren't there to platter you with your way of doing things, WUCs and instant end-game gear because then you would play the game even more with many people (just look at how unsuccessful private servers with high rates are in any game, I got you no data), and this is what I was saying earlier about 'whales' quitting earlier when they will not run out of content because LG make +9 so hard, which required thousand of anti-destruct +9 full set, multiply with 5 set just for lv55. If you all would simply pay up more, then there would be no need for the selfish player model to dominate the industry, but the fact of matter is, the gold sink model is the most successful in terms of keeping a business alive, when the game has little to no content - and if you want to change that, you can do so. Just pay up enough so that we can all enjoy a publicly sponsored server with nice drop rates, nice upgrade rates and everything associated with it like weekly updates. If I had the money, I would sponsor the 'server' or publisher, or 'bribe' - but of course to get to that point, what do you need to do in real life..? Make money, and not being greedy doesn't make you money. Not caring about inputs and outputs would never get you to that point of self-sustainability.

If the spending conversion rate was not 3-10% but instead 30-70% like in Asia, do you think they would have to make upgrade rates so garbage, do you think they would need to limit your inventory to literally one garbage bag, do you think they would need to charge an arm and a leg for exclusive outfits.. they would not. Once again, people don't play for the feelings of other people, or the majority don't. Do you see level 55s helping low levels level up? (I'm helping them, and helping their economy). Not with the in-game system of EXP deterrence. Do you see people in the same social strata of gear levels helping those lower? Just how many people and how much time investment do you need to spend on helping every individual player to get to the end game, and how many giveaways of WUCs at 2,000,000 DZ is needed before people can enjoy the end game. Chances are, your altruism would end up in utter pointlessness with players quitting if no gold sink long before they even get to the end game and all that wasted effort for nothing. The main point is, you cannot change human behavior, but you can design systems to entice them to do things differently; just try to ride motorcylce to supermarket and get your significant other to change their habits and everything about them, and see where it lands you. Nowhere. MMOs like this cater to the 18-25 male audience, who are probably more risk-taking, impulsive and selfish than other distributions of the population - so game studios who improperly design/localize their games end up out of business when they cannot take into factors/traits of said demographic in their business model.

It has nothing to do with the selfishness of individual players caring about other players, right? when you play a game you want the best gears, the best weapons, the highest level and so on forth.. or at least according to Gameforge's academic paper on power user players that's what 18-25 males want the most. So I am not sure where you are getting this silly idea about other people not caring about gear is coming from; I simply said that GF is losing profits on DZ buyers to upgrade their gear when they can simply buy those items in the cash shop, that has no relevance whatsoever to other players if whales decide to solo-play their game and CS their way to god-tier hood status. My suggestion alone if implemented would in fact be beneficial to F2Per, because WUCs are probably the most liquid thing on the market compared to all other SC items, and if there's a proper recognized channel for stuff, then people will use that instead. Why do you think black markets around the world exist when 'official' rates for things are posted? Are you going to change $1 currency to $1000 of garbage currency when the black market is $100,000? Black markets exist because human nature. People want the greatest quantity of things for the least amount of input - so just monetize that and cater to it as a proper F2P business. I don't really see what you're getting at, I simply am suggesting to expand the elasticity curve of demand to be fulfilled by low-income, low-spending players too.

Buying SC doesn't inflate the market, if you properly read my post about economic principles, you would know that. Maybe you should try buying 100,000 SC and spamming the market with outfits and see if you manage to sell any at the same price points to F2P who don't have the DZ to do so, and whether you give away your in real life money for the lowest returns in game, or whether you give away your time to the lowest effectiveness charities/things you value about (hint, most people would not unless they themselves were in a position to do so like 'retirement status' or successful 50s business owner); in fact the merchant who resells hair colours and furniture on NA has a hard time selling to F2Pers at higher price points because they don't buy DZ, and is stuck with stock that no one wants because whales who buy DZ also buy SC and have no need for resold SC items on the market.

I don't know about you, but if you have a 100% chance to buy your lovely things at 5x cheaper rate than what other people are offering, why in the world would you not take the chance to do so; are you going to personally do a 5% chance to lose 800$ gambling machine or take the $200 guaranteed epic loot box. You already see this selfishness in the community when they complain about hairstyle prices, item crafting requirements - it is ironic that you are proposing more WUCs per farming hours, which has a net effect on alt farming and GF's bottom line. Who knew that benefiting yourself also means someone else suffers at times. Two vending machines, same products, same things, one is cheaper. The community is not at fault, nor is the individual rational player. It is simply poor game design and poor publisher choices that lead to the circumstances we have today, and what we see. That is all.

Trying to make everyone into heartful, passionate people who give away all their things, sell stuff as the same cost-basis of production would in fact make society worse off. When you spend more resources for things, and waste more of your time into making $, real life or in game for stuff you don't want, you end up destroying value, lifetime, energy and everything associated with it. It's like having a monopoly on water, and making everyone suffer. Competition exists to make things more tenable to people so they have more free time in their lives to do other things. If you want to put people on an equal playing field, you can -but don't expect everyone to climb to the top in day one, and don't expect people to not use all their willpower in being efficient at what they do. In order to help others, you must first help yourself. If you yourself cannot get to godhood farming status, then you yourself cannot be in a position to give away WUCs to new players - if you cannot understand this simple principle, then you will never climb to the top. And most people don't really care about climbing to the top, except those that complain about it being hard but don't expend the time or money to do so and then complain about other people who do have the time and money.

Some of the most prominent streamers of the game were only able to give away billions of DZ in items/currency because they spent some forms of cash (for SC) to sell for DZ; according to you, however, these people should not that given opportunity because they denied other players of those items, and further, according to you, people who spend significant time farming their gears to efficiently earn items that they sell for DZ to buy other items that they want should be selling them at a lower cost basis so they end up farming 10x more hours to get the things they want when they sell stuff for DZ, and furthermore, everyone should be playing the RNG gambling machine with 5-10% chance to be burning $300-$800 or 300-500 productive time hours of your life because it is fair to do so (are the implications of your principle of 'being charitable to everyone, the community first and foremost', where every single of those hours spent on the game could of been a career advancement, or family time, where every dollar could of been saved for other fruitful endeavors rather than gambling micro-transaction games, and this would also mean if they did this, lowered wages for these game studios, so less F2P games, and the cycle of complaints go on and on and on). There is no action that you do that does not cause a negative externality to other individuals; you either deprive someone of time, opportunity, energy or money whenever you do something, or to yourself. Expecting people to compound these negative externalities onto oneself is probably the furthest principle I myself would expect anyone to abide to, and last thing any living rational sentient being should do.

At the end of the day, some whales just want to get away from their high-paying stress job and lush around their epic gears in front of virtual friends for some gratification, but you have to deny these individuals of that satisfaction. Good job, you ended up hurting someone in the process.

Edited 17 times, last by Rin (Monday, 1:32 am).

tl;dr

Quote from Nope

When I suggest so that wuc to be sold on npc, I just forgot that there are some players that like to farm WUC, and play to farm wuc. Maybe they didn't read that no where in the suggestion to nerf the drop rate wup or make any change to how it was to be beside putting it on npc. So they got butt hurt.

Maybe they aren't clear that, GF is a business company, they care their micro transaction as some guy mentioned, do you think they care if you like to farm wuc, farming with nostalgic and slow feeling. They care if the business becomes fluid, player are buying lots of anti destruction, price of in-game item is stable, new players will not scare their pants when they see the price in in-game market.

The suggestion is for everyone, if you like to farm it slow, then go on. If you enjoy doing nothing else but farming wuc rather than other game content, then go on. The government won't stop you. BUT...just But. I caps BUTT because it might misspell or it spells too short or it is short that you might miss it. But why are you blocking other player buying wuc from npc? Is it getting wuc from npc seems free to you? Are other players disturbing your farming time? Or it is ruining your hidden agenda with wuc?

Let's say you like to go to a supermarket by walking. You enjoy your catwalk, it's nice to you. Then you see your friend Tet riding a motorcycle to go to the supermarket. Obviously he arrive earlier. You get discontent because by using motorcycle, Tet is faster, by paying a lot more than you. You complaint to government to disband motorcycle. Government say its their choice, and efficient too, you said not. You want everyone to catwalk to supermarket as you do. Why don't you want to ride motorcycle with Tet?

-: new section :-

The following is credited to rin (thanks rin) that give me some inspiration and I edit (in italic) some of the content:

A game like soulworker isn't intended for you to spend 300 hours per month for you to your own way on the company's servers, it is intended to nickel and dime you for everything you need to progress so that everyone including hardcore high-spending population remains. Do you think the top billion dollar microtransaction games on smartphones in revenue care about your petty feelings about other people in an online environment about your relative slow and nostalgic farming method, relative player stat levels, relative building levels and everything else? No. They only care to maximize good business model before your eyes so that you can both remove them with money or not. Game studios and businesses aren't there to platter you with your way of doing things, WUCs and instant end-game gear because then you would play the game even more with many people (just look at how unsuccessful private servers with high rates are in any game, I got you no data), and this is what I was saying earlier about 'whales' quitting earlier when they will not run out of content because LG make +9 so hard, which required thousand of anti-destruct +9 full set, multiply with 5 set just for lv55. If you all would simply pay up more, then there would be no need for the selfish player model to dominate the industry, but the fact of matter is, the gold sink model is the most successful in terms of keeping a business alive, when the game has little to no content - and if you want to change that, you can do so. Just pay up enough so that we can all enjoy a publicly sponsored server with nice drop rates, nice upgrade rates and everything associated with it like weekly updates. If I had the money, I would sponsor the 'server' or publisher, or 'bribe' - but of course to get to that point, what do you need to do in real life..? Make money, and not being greedy doesn't make you money. Not caring about inputs and outputs would never get you to that point of self-sustainability.

If the spending conversion rate was not 3-10% but instead 30-70% like in Asia, do you think they would have to make upgrade rates so garbage, do you think they would need to limit your inventory to literally one garbage bag, do you think they would need to charge an arm and a leg for exclusive outfits.. they would not. Once again, people don't play for the feelings of other people, or the majority don't. Do you see level 55s helping low levels level up? (I'm helping them, and helping their economy). Not with the in-game system of EXP deterrence. Do you see people in the same social strata of gear levels helping those lower? Just how many people and how much time investment do you need to spend on helping every individual player to get to the end game, and how many giveaways of WUCs at 2,000,000 DZ is needed before people can enjoy the end game. Chances are, your altruism would end up in utter pointlessness with players quitting if no gold sink long before they even get to the end game and all that wasted effort for nothing. The main point is, you cannot change human behavior, but you can design systems to entice them to do things differently; just try to ride motorcylce to supermarket and get your significant other to change their habits and everything about them, and see where it lands you. Nowhere. MMOs like this cater to the 18-25 male audience, who are probably more risk-taking, impulsive and selfish than other distributions of the population - so game studios who improperly design/localize their games end up out of business when they cannot take into factors/traits of said demographic in their business model.

It has nothing to do with the selfishness of individual players caring about other players, right? when you play a game you want the best gears, the best weapons, the highest level and so on forth.. or at least according to Gameforge's academic paper on power user players that's what 18-25 males want the most. So I am not sure where you are getting this silly idea about other people not caring about gear is coming from; I simply said that GF is losing profits on DZ buyers to upgrade their gear when they can simply buy those items in the cash shop, that has no relevance whatsoever to other players if whales decide to solo-play their game and CS their way to god-tier hood status. My suggestion alone if implemented would in fact be beneficial to F2Per, because WUCs are probably the most liquid thing on the market compared to all other SC items, and if there's a proper recognized channel for stuff, then people will use that instead. Why do you think black markets around the world exist when 'official' rates for things are posted? Are you going to change $1 currency to $1000 of garbage currency when the black market is $100,000? Black markets exist because human nature. People want the greatest quantity of things for the least amount of input - so just monetize that and cater to it as a proper F2P business. I don't really see what you're getting at, I simply am suggesting to expand the elasticity curve of demand to be fulfilled by low-income, low-spending players too.

Buying SC doesn't inflate the market, if you properly read my post about economic principles, you would know that. Maybe you should try buying 100,000 SC and spamming the market with outfits and see if you manage to sell any at the same price points to F2P who don't have the DZ to do so, and whether you give away your in real life money for the lowest returns in game, or whether you give away your time to the lowest effectiveness charities/things you value about (hint, most people would not unless they themselves were in a position to do so like 'retirement status' or successful 50s business owner); in fact the merchant who resells hair colours and furniture on NA has a hard time selling to F2Pers at higher price points because they don't buy DZ, and is stuck with stock that no one wants because whales who buy DZ also buy SC and have no need for resold SC items on the market.

I don't know about you, but if you have a 100% chance to buy your lovely things at 5x cheaper rate than what other people are offering, why in the world would you not take the chance to do so; are you going to personally do a 5% chance to lose 800$ gambling machine or take the $200 guaranteed epic loot box. You already see this selfishness in the community when they complain about hairstyle prices, item crafting requirements - it is ironic that you are proposing more WUCs per farming hours, which has a net effect on alt farming and GF's bottom line. Who knew that benefiting yourself also means someone else suffers at times. Two vending machines, same products, same things, one is cheaper. The community is not at fault, nor is the individual rational player. It is simply poor game design and poor publisher choices that lead to the circumstances we have today, and what we see. That is all.

Trying to make everyone into heartful, passionate people who give away all their things, sell stuff as the same cost-basis of production would in fact make society worse off. When you spend more resources for things, and waste more of your time into making $, real life or in game for stuff you don't want, you end up destroying value, lifetime, energy and everything associated with it. It's like having a monopoly on water, and making everyone suffer. Competition exists to make things more tenable to people so they have more free time in their lives to do other things. If you want to put people on an equal playing field, you can -but don't expect everyone to climb to the top in day one, and don't expect people to not use all their willpower in being efficient at what they do. In order to help others, you must first help yourself. If you yourself cannot get to godhood farming status, then you yourself cannot be in a position to give away WUCs to new players - if you cannot understand this simple principle, then you will never climb to the top. And most people don't really care about climbing to the top, except those that complain about it being hard but don't expend the time or money to do so and then complain about other people who do have the time and money.

Some of the most prominent streamers of the game were only able to give away billions of DZ in items/currency because they spent some forms of cash (for SC) to sell for DZ; according to you, however, these people should not that given opportunity because they denied other players of those items, and further, according to you, people who spend significant time farming their gears to efficiently earn items that they sell for DZ to buy other items that they want should be selling them at a lower cost basis so they end up farming 10x more hours to get the things they want when they sell stuff for DZ, and furthermore, everyone should be playing the RNG gambling machine with 5-10% chance to be burning $300-$800 or 300-500 productive time hours of your life because it is fair to do so (are the implications of your principle of 'being charitable to everyone, the community first and foremost', where every single of those hours spent on the game could of been a career advancement, or family time, where every dollar could of been saved for other fruitful endeavors rather than gambling micro-transaction games, and this would also mean if they did this, lowered wages for these game studios, so less F2P games, and the cycle of complaints go on and on and on). There is no action that you do that does not cause a negative externality to other individuals; you either deprive someone of time, opportunity, energy or money whenever you do something, or to yourself. Expecting people to compound these negative externalities onto oneself is probably the furthest principle I myself would expect anyone to abide to, and last thing any living rational sentient being should do.

At the end of the day, some whales just want to get away from their high-paying stress job and lush around their epic gears in front of virtual friends for some gratification, but you have to deny these individuals of that satisfaction. Good job, you ended up hurting someone in the process.

Edited 17 times, last by Rin (Monday, 1:32 am).

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Look this is simple. no matter how much you all write GF is not stupid. lol They know all content can be cleared at +6 which you need 0 WUC. infact the KR complained the game was to easy........ so not sure where this is even coming from other than from people that 1. dont want to spend the time to farm ( question though what would you do if you had full +9 right now? You more likely than not would play for a few weeks and go "ohh damn this was to easy and its boring" )

All im looking for is something realistic as far as suggestions when i read. have not found much as of yet though. People keep asking for it to be easy or they will quit. Yet if it were easy they still would quit. From the business prospective what incentive does the game get in going either direction? Well i can tell you NOTHING. Get made because you have to grind. okay people quit. Make it to where its easy. people quit. They have absolutely not one damn reason to change anything because honestly every idea that has been mentioned sucks.

As far as loving to farm WUC ya know.....I play the game. You know like play the game. Not afk and wait for something specific PLAY THE GAME. So its not a love to farm WUC. Its more like and old school "if i had shit else to do i would not be logged in, so i might as well do something other than write on the forum and accomplish nothing PLAY THE GAME". That said if people really had something else to do they would not write novels on the forum they would PLAY THE GAME. If there honestly was a response from GF that said "thats not gonna happen" then i guess you would PLAY THE GAME.

The think i love about BDO is that they have 0 fucks given for post like this. Because its simple you just have to....you know what im about to say "PLAY THE GAME" >.>

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Quote from Nope

they won't nerf again because playerbase keep decreasing unless they want make this game p2w and whales will complain the server is dead and become lonely housewife

That is questionable. When only a few select players who were the first 55s knew about akashi farming and the OP 30-50 cards/anti-destructs a day, with most of the playerbase being low level, nothing was done about it.

The moment everyone hit 55 needing to upgrade their gear, they conveniently removed it.

Gameforge is moniitoring these forums, just look at the "akashi box" scam thread where someone mentioned that the 50 pack of akashis were essentially the same price as the limited akashi box and the free akashis in the akashi box were supposedly discounted from a value of '7150' or something but that implies that 50 akashi cards were more expensive, which they weren't. The moment that thread appeared, they conveniently removed the 50 akashi card discount from the cash shop, likewise with nerfing alt farming from 24 hrs to 1 week; this was also removed in the other versions as someone publicized this.

The micro-transaction models entails paying for game control, or skipping farming an untenable amount of hours or getting rid of annoyances, nickeling and diming for everything - so if they boosted the WUC farm rate, I wouldn't be surprised if they nerfed the strength expansion ticket quest onto ruin fortress, making it impossible as a F2P to get your nice +8 weapon without spending months.

Need efficient gear? I farmed Suzie and rookie raids without gear sets. It really isn't that difficult, yes GC is a different story but GC shouldn't be the only farm method for WUCs.

Also using peoples situations like "I cant farm this, I'm busy" doesn't mean they should have any sort of permission to break the rules by purchasing gold entirely screw over the community to satisfy their own greed. I understand where you are coming from but if you dont have the time to put into games like these, why play games that require a lot of investment instead of easy drop in drop out games that dont require intensive grind?

I understand most of your points is basically suggesting the community needs to suffer bc some people cant invest that much time. It's like being in a multiplayer match: Lets say you're playing a free for all game. You need to go to family gathering/dinner whatever. So you expect everyone to drop what they're doing and suffer because you aren't available?

If gameforge were to compensate the players who can't play enough in the week, there would be no insentive to grind that game because you'd be given 2 options

1: I could grind the game and earn my stuff normally which is what a game like soulworker is intended to make you do.

2: I'm going to buy gold or buy SC to make a lot of dz, then purposefully inflate the market so everyone has to stay on my pace.

A game like soulworker isn't intended for you to spend 300 hours per month for you to freeload on the company's servers, it is intended to nickel and dime you for everything you need to progress so that only the hardcore high-spending population remains. Do you think the top billion dollar microtransaction games on smartphones in revenue care about your petty feelings about other people in an online environment about your relative gear levels, relative player stat levels, relative building levels and everything else? No. They only care to put frustrations before your eyes so that you can remove them with money. Game studios and businesses aren't there to platter you with infinite luxuries, WUCs and instant end-game gear because then you wouldn't play the game (just look at how unsuccessful private servers with high rates are in any game), and this is what I was saying earlier about 'whales' quitting earlier when they run out of content to whale on. If you all would simply pay up more, then there would be no need for the F2P model to dominate the industry, but the fact of matter is, the F2P model is the most successful in terms of keeping a business alive, when the game has little to no content - and if you want to change that, you can do so. Just pay up enough so that we can all enjoy a publicly sponsored server with nice drop rates, nice upgrade rates and everything associated with it like weekly updates. If I had the money, I would sponsor the 'server' or publisher, or 'bribe' - but of course to get to that point, what do you need to do in real life..? Make money, and not being greedy doesn't make you money. Not caring about inputs and outputs would never get you to that point of self-sustainability.

If the spending conversion rate was not 3-10% but instead 30-70% like in Asia, do you think they would have to make upgrade rates so garbage, do you think they would need to limit your inventory to literally one garbage bag, do you think they would need to charge an arm and a leg for exclusive outfits.. they would not. Once again, people don't play for the feelings of other people, or the majority don't. Do you see level 55s helping low levels level up? Not with the in-game system of EXP deterrence. Do you see people in the same social strata of gear levels helping those lower? Just how many people and how much time investment do you need to spend on helping every individual player to get to the end game, and how many giveaways of WUCs at 1 DZ is needed before people can enjoy the end game. Chances are, your altruism would end up in utter pointlessness with players quitting long before they even get to the end game and all that wasted effort for nothing. The main point is, you cannot change human behavior, but you can design systems to entice them to do things differently; just try and get your significant other to change their habits and everything about them, and see where it lands you. Nowhere. MMOs like this cater to the 18-25 male audience, who are probably more risk-taking, impulsive and selfish than other distributions of the population - so game studios who improperly design/localize their games end up out of business when they cannot take into factors/traits of said demographic in their business model.

It has nothing to do with the selfishness of individual players caring about other players, when you play a game you want the best gears, the best weapons, the highest level and so on forth.. or at least according to Gameforge's academic paper on power user players that's what 18-25 males want the most. So I am not sure where you are getting this silly idea about other people not caring about gear is coming from; I simply said that GF is losing profits on DZ buyers to upgrade their gear when they can simply buy those items in the cash shop, that has no relevance whatsoever to other players if whales decide to solo-play their game and CS their way to god-tier hood status. My suggestion alone if implemented would in fact be beneficial to F2Per, because WUCs are probably the most liquid thing on the market compared to all other SC items, and if there's a proper recognized channel for stuff, then people will use that instead. Why do you think black markets around the world exist when 'official' rates for things are posted? Are you going to change $1 currency to $1000 of garbage currency when the black market is $100,000? Black markets exist because human nature. People want the greatest quantity of things for the least amount of input - so just monetize that and cater to it as a proper F2P business. I don't really see what you're getting at, I simply am suggesting to expand the elasticity curve of demand to be fulfilled by low-income, low-spending players too.

Buying SC doesn't inflate the market, if you properly read my post about economic principles, you would know that. Maybe you should try buying 100,000 SC and spamming the market with outfits and see if you manage to sell any at the same price points to F2P who don't have the DZ to do so, and whether you give away your in real life money for the lowest returns in game, or whether you give away your time to the lowest effectiveness charities/things you value about (hint, most people would not unless they themselves were in a position to do so like 'retirement status' or successful 50s business owner); in fact the merchant who resells hair colours and furniture on NA has a hard time selling to F2Pers at higher price points because they don't buy DZ, and is stuck with stock that no one wants because whales who buy DZ also buy SC and have no need for resold SC items on the market.

I don't know about you, but if you have a 100% chance to buy your lovely things at 5x cheaper rate than what other people are offering, why in the world would you not take the chance to do so; are you going to personally do a 5% chance to lose 800$ gambling machine or take the $200 guaranteed epic loot box. You already see this selfishness in the community when they complain about hairstyle prices, item crafting requirements - it is ironic that you are proposing more WUCs per farming hours, which has a net effect on alt farming and GF's bottom line. Who knew that benefiting yourself also means someone else suffers at times. Two vending machines, same products, same things, one is cheaper. The community is not at fault, nor is the individual rational player. It is simply poor game design and poor publisher choices that lead to the circumstances we have today, and what we see. That is all.

Trying to make everyone into heartful, passionate people who give away all their things, sell stuff as the same cost-basis of production would in fact make society worse off. When you spend more resources for things, and waste more of your time into making $, real life or in game for stuff you don't want, you end up destroying value, lifetime, energy and everything associated with it. It's like having a monopoly on water, and making everyone suffer. Competition exists to make things more tenable to people so they have more free time in their lives to do other things. If you want to put people on an equal playing field, you can -but don't expect everyone to climb to the top in day one, and don't expect people to not use all their willpower in being efficient at what they do. In order to help others, you must first help yourself. If you yourself cannot get to godhood farming status, then you yourself cannot be in a position to give away WUCs to new players - if you cannot understand this simple principle, then you will never climb to the top. And most people don't really care about climbing to the top, except those that complain about it being hard but don't expend the time or money to do so and then complain about other people who do have the time and money.

Some of the most prominent streamers of the game were only able to give away billions of DZ in items/currency because they spent some forms of cash (for SC) to sell for DZ; according to you, however, these people should not that given opportunity because they denied other players of those items, and further, according to you, people who spend significant time farming their gears to efficiently earn items that they sell for DZ to buy other items that they want should be selling them at a lower cost basis so they end up farming 10x more hours to get the things they want when they sell stuff for DZ, and furthermore, everyone should be playing the RNG gambling machine with 5-10% chance to be burning $300-$800 or 300-500 productive time hours of your life because it is fair to do so (are the implications of your principle of 'being charitable to everyone, the community first and foremost', where every single of those hours spent on the game could of been a career advancement, or family time, where every dollar could of been saved for other fruitful endeavors rather than gambling micro-transaction games, and this would also mean if they did this, lowered wages for these game studios, so less F2P games, and the cycle of complaints go on and on and on). There is no action that you do that does not cause a negative externality to other individuals; you either deprive someone of time, opportunity, energy or money whenever you do something, or to yourself. Expecting people to compound these negative externalities onto oneself is probably the furthest principle I myself would expect anyone to abide to, and last thing any living rational sentient being should do.

At the end of the day, some whales just want to get away from their high-paying stress job and lush around their epic gears in front of virtual friends for some gratification, but you have to deny these individuals of that satisfaction. Good job, you ended up hurting someone in the process.

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You seem to miss my point, it's not about GF or other business does not care about f2p feeling or not, but they care if whales are leaving because server is dead. Whales are lonely to play between among themselves only when f2p are leaving too.

And you are saying by giving WUC whales age getting all they want so they quit when they max. You should not say that when even a +9 weapon takes Ag.e.s to achieve. AND whales got plenty of gears to +9 their Armor, which could take thousand of ANTIs. And that's just 1 full set of armor, in this game we have multiple sets to go, namely pvp set, dark bone set, Aurith, primal,and vicarious set. And Lion Game makes it more interesting by making a SET EFFECT for +9 things, those are for whaes. Even King of Whales don't want to go that far. F2P usually would dream a +8 only, given they invest tons of time to farm antis (which no longer the case, I semi-quit farming because of too much time waste). I don't have the luxury to write lengthy of essay though

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True, some people spend more, some less. The casual whale is sufficient with a plus 8 and plus 6 armor. The hyperwhale gets plus 9 maxed everything. Yes, I know people who expend $20,000-$200,000 on each individual game; anyhow, that's not the point. I wouldn't say whales are leaving because the server is dead, considering the guilds on the server all know each other and we practically play together and see everyone everyday at d6 boss and gc. Everyone acknowledges that the game gets more boring day by day spamming dungeons and raids that you already have the gear for. In terms of F2P, I'd have to say that most of us don't really meet or see the other 90% of the playerbase in RF or below, unless we are doing rookie raids. Yes, whales do acknowledge that the servers are dying, and as long as content keeps coming out, people will play together. If other whales lose interest in the game, then those whales will also quit, that will happen regardless of the state of other F2Ps on the server.

Each gear check level of a game will lead to filtration of people who are too bored to stick around in the interim updates, and people who cannot catch up in gear, as well as people who no longer find any value in playing - this is why content compression happens after for every f2p game within a year; I see this in nearly every 'f2p' game, with the remaining core population being 200-400 people who play on the same server for a year, or two or more. That is simply the natural consequence of the game, and there is nothing you can do about it unless you turn it into a high quality high-content game that is variable everyday and offers something exciting or new to whales/f2p. The only way for that to happen is increased revenue from either an increased amount of new incoming players, or squeezing from the remaining few who choose to stay behind.

The amount of updates, game support staff, and everything associated with game longevity is proportional to its revenue stream. You don't see 'e-game Live MMO', 'catalogued 24/7 live support', '6-tiered dungeon raiding' and all those nice features with steady-revenue subscription large triple AAA titles, because a game studio/publisher of 15 people or less is not going to be funded with tens of millions of dollars, or hundreds.

People get what they wish for. No interest in grinding? Just looking for a quick fix? Well, that already removes half of new players. An addendum of soloing to level 55, and having to + things to atrocious levels filters another 75%. Filter after filter, layer by layer, non-hardcore, non-power users, non-paying users are removed from the game. I already saw this scenario since day 1 of starting a level 1 character on this game - it isn't hard to see, it's pretty implicit the moment you step in a korean grinder MMO. Either you spend money or you rack up the hours, that is all. There is no compromise, and there will never be one. People who keep arguing otherwise or spewing nonsensical nonsense and refuse to acknowledge the facts of reality will find themselves gravely disappointed.

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your talking to people that would think 100 dollars is life changing. not to mention spending 20k or 200k irl money lol my last game i was at over 4.5k but this one honestly i really just dont see the need to spend like that. most of the things you can get if you just play. But heeey im never one to hate. It aint trickin if ya got it lol XD Honestly I see these post from other people and saay thats why i park my truck at the end wherever i go. They would key it just because they dont have it. Gaming is like irl whether people want to admit it or not.

Those who get the jump on things first get the most pay. those who work hard as hell might get something. And those who have money from the start well ....we already know how that goes. Ehhh

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I would like to buy a costume but it is very expensive

hi Rock

Hiiii my friend ;3

good to see ya still alive! so what do you think of this topic? lol kinda funny right. considering the price for energy converters lol 500mil XD hell yea get 10 WUC for that lol