Lily class concepts (Math later)

Also, one more thing. Let's switch Triad and Carnage in between them in terms of cooldown and SF costs. You obviously need to buff Carnage and nerf Triad a bit - you already know my opinion on the things that could be done with Carnage. Also, the KR buffs that made Triad's cast speed twice as fast should be enough to keep it viable in case its % scaling goes down.

Quote from Yagyu4k

About Triad, I know but I mentioned the new casting speed already Since it finally scales with your attack speed in KR at least.

The current triad is damage-wise a bit weak without the KR buff. Let's say we nerf Triad now without the KR buff > it makes her even worse then.

We have to wait for the new casting animation before we nerf anything.

The english Lily require some tiny buffs to compete with other classes in PvE. (PvP is a different story since she is a victim)

Carnage get nerfed in KR (tiny nerf) damage wise, someone had a idea to add a tiny damage reduction buff during the casting animation.

Cooldown should be a bit higher for a better Phoon synergy but indeed SF costs need some adjustments and may a bit more damage for the green extension at least.

The red extension is absolute useless (revamp soon)

All classes need a healthy mix of damage, utility, mobility in a game like SW.

Erwin is in my opinion the best balanced class for now (except 1 ability).

and yeah the EN Lily is too static and "a bit" too weak damage wise + the most useless ult in the game (therefore some math is required)

The KR Lily is damn fun to play (just a bit too weak again, and you get the next ability without cancel > Frenzy) but that's kinda easy to fix.

She need some utility for PvP and a better control in PvE. (As HoQ mentioned already)

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imo Triad > Carnage. After buffs Triad >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carnage if things stay the same. Triad would have only to gain from a lesser cooldown, even if its scaling gets nerfed, while Carnage needs bold changes to become viable.

imo

Extension 1) invincibility for its whole cast duration, 360 degree hitbox, 80% slow for 0.5 seconds per hit with no major damage or range buffs;

Extension 2) conic range becomes as large as Triad's, damage is increased 2.5 times.

Also, when I refer to Carnage's damage I mean its own damage + the extra amount it makes tornado deal.

(everything considering Triad and Carnage switch places and thus Triad loses some scaling on top of the obvious CD&SF cost changes - Triad's damage in time should stay the same though, only its burst potential has to get gutted because of the reduced CD)

PS: I think Extension 2 would benefit from a brief dash back effect before assuming siege position, so you can Tornado, +/-basic attack > dash back > +1 dash back from Carnage and MUDA MUDA MUDA, from a safe position.

OR you can turn this into that dashback

(I think all this will be k considering how the last KR buff patch slightly delayed the moment when tornado appears from the moment you cast it).

Quote from Yagyu4k

A invince buff goes way too far for a ability like this

it's meant to make it versatile in PvP since nobody would trade a billion damage for utility in PvE.

As for 2nd extension: tornado +/- basic, dash back, , dash back, would also work if the range of is long enough and it will also fit your fancy of buffing Carnage. The execution time of needs to be rendered almost 0 though.

PS: also, imagine if Carnage would be the only active ability to interact with

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Lily's attacks have a 35% chance to empower her weapon, dealing 260% additional damage on her next 4 basic attacks and drain 7.5% stamina from 1 target, per hit. Her attack speed is increased by 35% for 2 seconds whenever stamina is drained.

(6 seconds buff duration, 15 seconds cooldown).

It would be lit!

Quote from Yagyu4k

Her attack speed is increased by 35% ???????????????????????????????????? :O

You know, 35% are a lot

Isnt it a bit too strong?

Well, isn't everybody, absolutely everybody asking for damage?

Now she has bold damage ... xd

Yeah, I feel it's a bit too strong as well

Might have to adjust that to a 15% ish.

Great Job, Yagyu4k

Keep it up

Big PS

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Lily's attacks have a 35% chance to empower her weapon, dealing 260% additional damage on her next 4 basic attacks and drain 7.5% SF from 1 target, per hit. Her attack speed is increased by 35% for 2 seconds whenever SF is drained.

(6 seconds buff duration, 15 seconds cooldown).

I meant to say SF back there

Quote from Yagyu4k

Quote from xCGG

Big PS

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Lily's attacks have a 35% chance to empower her weapon, dealing 260% additional damage on her next 4 basic attacks and drain 7.5% SF from 1 target, per hit. Her attack speed is increased by 35% for 2 seconds whenever SF is drained.

(6 seconds buff duration, 15 seconds cooldown).

I meant to say SF back there

Oh!

How about: 7.5% SF + 10-15% attack speed?

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Well it makes sense ... it speeds up the animations of both ability casts and basics, thus enabling you to quickly make use of the passive stacks. I don't think attack speed is mandatory but it's a very convenient thing to have.

As for the SF gain, point is that there are more than enough sources to boost your stamina gain but not enough sources for the SF gain.

Quote from Yagyu4k

That's a lot and I'll keep it in mind, thanks a lot

About your "PvP" yes many stuff is for PvP too to make her viable, actually she is just a victim, no matter how good your gear is.

Don't forget the changes aren't for now only, it is for the future (1st adv, 2nd adv.) that means all classes get more stuff and she'll fall behind more and more (especially in PvP, but also in PvE)

The changes for her ultimate are kinda important since she have the worst ultimate in the game.

the range indicator is very important (the current range is tiny) and the damage is almost 0 for now.

1 important fact for every class > new updates > keep them exciting and enjoyable otherwise you'll see many rerollers.

Korea and Japan have almost no Lily players anymore, the same happens in EN more step by step.

First, nobody was playing Erwin but many players realized how fun and strong he is

Erwin, Haru, Iris share the top spot in case of DPS, Stella and Jin aren't too bad either for now.

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I dont think people playing are a clear indicator at how viable a class is. You probably all know how much of a big deal bandwagoning in online games is. It takes 1 popular person on the internet to say "this is the optimal gear/build" and you will see literally everyone walking around with it, despite being clearly not experienced enough to know what the best gear is. In the same way, it takes 1 popular streamer or whatever to say "Lilly is bad, play Erwin instead" and 80% of his followers will stop playing Lilly, without any of them actually having an idea of how strong any of the classes actually is. I dont want to accept something as a fact unless I have tried it out myself and not just because a famous KR player said so. People may respect their opinion but they are still human and can make mistakes, and if noone is there to counter-check them because noone even tried, that makes mistakes just all the more likely. Long story short, I hope you are basing the thought that Lilly is weak on your own experience, and not because it just is the general opinion shared in this forum.

That said, I chose to play Lilly because I like her as a character and wouldn't just switch even if she turned out to be the weakest. I have only played her to Lvl55 and beyond, so I can't really compare any of the characters that well in the endgame. What I do have however is played with every character up to lvl26 (safe for haru) via alt char farming, using pretty much always the same gear for everyone, so I can at least compare them on that level pretty well.

I liked playing Haru the least out of all of them, her basic combo has like no reach nor speed and I just kept chugging down meds one after another, her first skills didnt change much so I prioritized other characters over her. Played her only up to lvl13 so I basically have no knowledge about her at all.

Lilly is my Main and this is a Lilly thread so I'll use her as comparison for all the other characters. Out of all the characters, imo Lilly has the best basic combo by far, having a great reach with almost perfect 360° coverage just by spamming left click, which is a thing that I feel is being overlooked a lot in this thread. Because of this, her playstyle becomes very different from all the other characters since you can practically ignore everything that doesn't have super armor since they will just run into her basic combo and die. All of her skills at that point basically just serve to pull enemies together to make her basic combo more effective (Terror Chain, Scythe Throw) or act as an enhancement of her basic combo (Diabolo Spin, Scythe strike), this slightly changes with Culling Blade and Carnage, but she basically remains all about her basic combo all the way until she gets the Die-phoon - and even then the high cooldowns and SF cost make it so that playing Lilly still mostly consists out of doing her basic combo to get her SF back up while the cooldowns are ticking down. This is why I think basic changes like extra damage and attack speed based on your combo would work the best for her.

Hm next, let's compare her with Stella. If there is a bunch of small fries with an enemy with S Armor, using Lilly i completely ignore the small fries and take on the S Armor enemy first. With Stella, it's the opposite, first, you take out all the small ones with her great AoE skills, so they are out of the way and you can 1vs1 the big one and hit him with your zap guitar. Overall, Stella seems much better at killing small enemies than Lilly, but far worse against S Armor enemies so I think it balances out. Her AoEs easily oneshot small enemies, which is something Lilly doesnt have, and her Zap guitar can break the S Armor in a single use, but she doesnt have the means to make much out of that armor break imo. Stellas basic combo has great coverage, but seems super bad against elite mobs so I basically followed a hit, run and spam skill from afar strategy with her. Her skills are much better than Lillys, but she needs that as her basic combo is lacking and most of her skills require her to stand in a place for several seconds to use them properly.

(Until she learns her Ultimate, that skill seems incredibly overpowered to me)

Iris seems kind of similar to Stella in that regard, I basically don't use the basic combo at all when playing Iris and just spam all her skills all the time, only using her Soulstrike at times to replenish SF, making her the polar opposite of Lilly in that regard. I haven't played solo with Iris a lot so I can't make more accurate comparisons with her.

Jin works similar to Lilly in that he ignores small mobs and goes straight to fight the elite ones. However his basic combo is more similar to harus in terms of reach, while Lilly just kills every small fry that doesnt have a ranged attack, Jin just accepts taking their hits with his superior defense while he 1on1s the big mobs. While Lilly has to evade their attacks, Jin is all about the counter in combination with his powered up skills, killing the small fries as collateral damage most of the time. This changes at level 21 when he learns his aerial skill which clears the room before taking on the elite mobs. I think Jin is better than Lilly against bosses since he rarely ever runs out of stamina, but it's a situational thing. If the enemy doesnt have moves he can counter, Jin quickly becomes powerless. Like, the summer event dungeon is a huge pain with him since most enemies are using element moves.

Lastly, Erwin. His basic combo hits in a rectangle in front of him, the reach being surprisingly small considering hes using a gun, in fact the hitbox seems to expand more to the sides than in front of him. Erwins playstyle seems to revolve around dancing the enemies to get a good shot at them. While Lilly uses her skills to force the enemies into her reach, Erwins skills are designed to move himself into the right position to use them or his basic combo. He has similar ranged skills to stella to fight elite mobs, but his AoE skills seem lacking compared to her. His aerial causes an immediate armor break on Elites, which I find rather useless tbh as by the time you land the armor break is already half over. Honestly, I see no reason why Erwin would be significantly stronger than Lilly other than maybe just having flat more damage, especially so since neither of his Extensions seems very appealing and the only moves left to learn are his Ulti, and a skill that buffs fucking movement speed. At the same level, I can use Terror chain + one more skill to have one of the GOlem enemies armor broken and completely at my mercy when I play Lilly, with Erwin i have to Jump around and carefully shoot them from a distance, which takes more time and is more dangerous. Erwin's skills look more flashy and are more fun to execute though, this is something I would criticize at Lilly: All of her skills are just different scythe slashes everytime and don't feel very special when used, dont have to charge, aim, or click anything, basically just 1 press of a button and that's it. She revolves more around her basic combo, after all.

This probably got way too long to read, Tl;Dr: At least at up to Level 26, I think the characters are pretty balanced, maybe Iris is a bit OP. If Lilly becomes comparatively weaker endgame, focus should lie more on giving her passives that increases her performance overall, and not just buff some of her skills (like attack speed boosts), since Lilly is not as much of a skill-based character as the other classes.

Quote from Yagyu4k

Lilys scaling is absolute terrible and her abilities are completely fail designed. (I can say that, I'm playing mmo's my entire life and I'm working in this branch).

Well, I can say I feel like I do less damage than I should in GC, i have a +7 weapon with not perfect, but pretty good gear and Akasha and aside from Tornado, nothing seems to do decent damage (especially against the Lion Boss) there, so poor scaling sounds true to me.

Another thing I noticed is none of her attacks can do more than 1 damage on the enemies in the event dungeon, my friend is playing Stella and says he can oneshot Hot King Dynamite with one use of his Bass Boxes. I know this is a special case since its at lvl26+ but the speed and attacks of the enemies make clear it was originally designed for the point of the game KR is currently in (the mobs are level60 also). Even so, I find that place pretty relaxing to do with Lilly thanks to her supreme coverage and attack speed. It's a pain to run after Naran with Jin who cant counter almost anything in that area.

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The other classes are kinda balanced in PvP (Jin and Stella are a bit broken, and Iris deals a bit too much damage for now but otherwise it isn't too bad)

That really surprises me. Like I said, I don't have any expereince in PvP aside from occasionally getting attacked or attacking people in District 6, which usually ends up either one getting oneshot by the first skill they make. Like one tornado and you have immediate armor break, the game just doesnt seem to be designed for PvP at all, which is why I never bothered with it in the first place.

Quote from Starwin

I dont think people playing are a clear indicator at how viable a class is. You probably all know how much of a big deal bandwagoning in online games is. It takes 1 popular person on the internet to say "this is the optimal gear/build" and you will see literally everyone walking around with it, despite being clearly not experienced enough to know what the best gear is. In the same way, it takes 1 popular streamer or whatever to say "Lilly is bad, play Erwin instead" and 80% of his followers will stop playing Lilly, without any of them actually having an idea of how strong any of the classes actually is. I dont want to accept something as a fact unless I have tried it out myself and not just because a famous KR player said so. People may respect their opinion but they are still human and can make mistakes, and if noone is there to counter-check them because noone even tried, that makes mistakes just all the more likely. Long story short, I hope you are basing the thought that Lilly is weak on your own experience, and not because it just is the general opinion shared in this forum.

I'm +1 for this.

I personally think that she's just as strong as the rest of the characters. I won't say no to a chance at fixing the stuff I find most annoying at her though. Mostly utility fixes and some power shifting if possible, alongside the overbuff everybody is asking for in terms of DPS, of course.

Tornado+Carnage is all the strength that lily has nothing else worth compare to the rest class's imo.

Even with decent gear and high enchant weapon seems that the basic problem on lily is luck of utility and sustain.

OBS Tornado+Carnage according to my friend Yagyu4k got nerfed in KR so sadly they need to rework on her again .