Lily class concepts (Math later)

    Quote from Starwin

    I liked playing Haru the least out of all of them, her basic combo has like no reach nor speed and I just kept chugging down meds one after another, her first skills didnt change much so I prioritized other characters over her. Played her only up to lvl13 so I basically have no knowledge about her at all.

    i tried experiment lily vs haru, you can try it too to confirm.


    Details when i did the experiment at level 27 (both of us):


    -Haru and lily strip all armor, only weapon and

    -lily has almost twice crit, and has higher min-max dmg, I even wear costume with total of 16% armor break

    -haru got lesser min-max dmg

    -first 3 run, lily killed haru, haru wait until she die

    -next 3 run, haru kill lily, lily wait until she die


    I think it's either is OP broken, or lily is too weak. There's something fishy how the formula work for Lily (in a bad way).


    For the event dungeon I notice some thing is weird, using high damaging skill does not work well, but rather it boils down to number of hit. Therefore, I just spam tornado, culling blade, death throw. I found that killing Naran and Nita using basic attack + dodge is efficient (when ornado, culling blade, death throw are on cd).


    Another thing is, why HP regeneration from Angel of Death skill doesn't work? Is it just bug on my side?

    Quote from Nope

    For the event dungeon I notice some thing is weird, using high damaging skill does not work well, but rather it boils down to number of hit. Therefore, I just spam tornado, culling blade, death throw. I found that killing Naran and Nita using basic attack + dodge is efficient (when ornado, culling blade, death throw are on cd).


    Another thing is, why HP regeneration from Angel of Death skill doesn't work? Is it just bug on my side?

    As it should be,it is like that to make it so that everyone can do the event at any level in which it is accessible (26+) without any difference except for accessibility of effects (for example,my haru lvl 55 has almost always full hp thanks to hp regen,while my lily level 34 does not but suffer less overall damage from bosses which is in percentage). If you high damaging skills though (like REALLY HIGH) you can surpass the 1. My haru has some "2" damage on her basic combos,and 2 of skills do 6/7 damage everytime i use them on whatever mob inside rumble vacation.

    As for the scythe lifesteal,If you read the description you can see it heals based on damage. How much is 65% of 1 damage?
    Don't worry,just scythe the chair-shells if you really need to heal,hope for a crit and you can have all the hp you want.
    If you meant outside the event then no,it is not bugged for me (for now)


    As for the thread itself,As i said i have my lily only at 34 (mostly because i chose her to do alt-farming and i like having every character created,whatever game it is,and i made an exception to farm watermelons) so i can't really talk about her problems or whatever it is,but i sincerely have trouble with her SF only during boss fights,and i have no Taifon,while on my level 18 Iris i always end up some SF item during dungeons. Maybe is the fact that i do too many basic combos on Lilly and too many skills one after another on iris.


    One way to fix this on every characther that may need it would be scaling the SF cost of their skills,maybe doing 5 by 5 less everytime you level up a utility based one and 10 if you take an extension which reduces drastically the damage,so that the game rewards you for not thinking only about doing damage and to allow more combos (and playstyles) and probably more card setups. Obviously having this would mean having less of a damage power-up on the skills that get this treatment,but it's up to you decide what is more important.


    Hopefully LionGames receives the message from GF and thinks about what this thread and possible future balance threads have to say,unlike other programmers in other GF games.


    Have a good discussion,bye.

    Quote from Nope

    -Haru and lily strip all armor, only weapon and

    -lily has almost twice crit, and has higher min-max dmg, I even wear costume with total of 16% armor break


    -haru got lesser min-max dmg


    -first 3 run, lily killed haru, haru wait until she die


    -next 3 run, haru kill lily, lily wait until she die

    Level 27 doesnt count, we're talking about endgame ;) she scales poorly in dungeons and with items. Her abilities are literally badly designed. Phoon+Carnage good, Triad+Reaper as filler, all other abilities are bad.

    I'm playing her for 3 years now and many other players (KR, JP and EN top players) can confirm it that she isn't well designed.



    Quote from Nope

    For the event dungeon I notice some thing is weird, using high damaging skill does not work well, but rather it boils down to number of hit. Therefore, I just spam tornado, culling blade, death throw. I found that killing Naran and Nita using basic attack + dodge is efficient (when ornado, culling blade, death throw are on cd).

    You deal always 1 damage, it doesn't count either ;)

    Its easy with everyone, especially Haru and Iris

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    Yeah, I mean lifesteal from Angel of Death inside event dungeon. In my opinion, it still should work like always(after scaling the damage) because its a low level skill, plus we spend extra skill point on it. My lily was level 47, on crit she sometime could get 50% heal of her hp out side the event. Inside the event, it is 0 heals or it heals so less that i didn't notice anything

    Angel is highly dependent on critical rate.

    +it doesn't work for 1 damage enemies and not in pvp (not really at least)

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    jZrfaYV.pngRampaging Madness

    Every time Lily uses an ability she receives 1 stack of energy that empowers her weapon, dealing 360% additional damage on her next basic attack and regenerating 5% SF. Lilly can hold up to 3 energy stacks at a time.

    Her attack speed is permanently increased by 10%.


    New passive concept. :/


    Sounds interesting

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    She needs lower cooldowns, less SF cost, stronger basic attacks, that's all really.


    About the leveling a character to lvl 26 stuff, it doesn't really count since as characters level up, they get new abilities and their older ones stagnate. Lilly is cool at lvl 21, since she gets her first decent skill and her autos just reached that 200% damage scaling. But by lvl 55, it doesn't matter that Lilly has the best basic attack in the game. Iris has the worst ones and it doesn't prevent her from being the best character right now.



    About the whole Lilly might not be weak. I struggle to top 10 on worldboss, literally any Lilly struggles to get top10 with her(except for some dummies that thought investing into D6 weapons is worth). I have a +8 aurith weapon for Lilly.

    Meanwhile I have my poopy +6 rookie raid weapon on Iris, 10% less crit, 10% less boss damage, 4k less crit damage than my Lilly, I've yet to be outside of top 10 on Iris.

    Quote from Cater

    She needs lower cooldowns, less SF cost, stronger basic attacks, that's all really.

    Don't forget, some class assignments for PvP too to make her viable + enjoyable.

    + Additional combos, I'm getting tired of Phoon+Carnage only after 3 years :D

    I want to use more, but except triad,reaper and Ult as filler is nothing good enough to waste SF on it which makes her kinda boring after a while.


    +Adv 1 and 2 in the future, for now we can go with some normal buffs, but the class must get revamped completely with her next adv(2)


    One of the reasons why Lily is dying worldwide, not strong and kinda boring with the current PV.



    You should try the korean version, there you'll see how weak she is. Every Top player can confirm that she isn't worth it in a party.

    Haru=Iris>Erwin is the most common order (sometimes you see a Jin or a Stella) otherwise they stack 2 classes.


    Guilds in korea force you to reroll your class otherwise they kick you as Lily, she isn't accepted anymore since she got nerfed to the ground.

    But Strength is just 1 part, she isn't a good support with 60 since you don't skill any positioning abilities anymore for end content.


    That means she is a glass canon without damage (Cooldowns are 1 reason, the next is that 2 abilities are strong and everything else is the worst)

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    You can't compare the class's according the WB ranking imo . Lilly struggle at most parts when comes up to soloing things or pvp

    is a class that does progressive dmg with few broken skills>meaning small hit box/dmg expt tornado+carnage/ulti won't lock is rng if y will land a hit /long cd's-animations/SF con . A unique character in this game and the only thing that make her better than the rest is her cr rate + dmg ! She doesn't even have mobility and def skills .

    What does high crit rate and crit damage matter if her overall damage is still lower. Her only selling point is that she is the best sustained super armour breaker in the game, so if you don't have an imba team, you can still break the super amour of GC bosses.


    And I mean PVP, dead game mode.

    Quote from Cater

    What does high crit rate and crit damage matter if her overall damage is still lower. Her only selling point is that she is the best sustained super armour breaker in the game, so if you don't have an imba team, you can still break the super amour of GC bosses.


    And I mean PVP, dead game mode.


    Indeed


    About PvP (Just here). Korea is removing the Rift soon and replace it with some new game modes.

    The balance in PvP isn't good, I agree for 100% but it has potencial and you see how many players in NA/EU are looking forward for changes.


    I'm kinda excited for the beta test in KR soon, I mean PvE is nice and everything (may a few more boss mechanics). But PvP could be really fun too if the game is balanced.


    I was one of the Top PvE and PvP players in a different game for many many years, it isn't fun to have an opponnent with a victim class.


    I'm not a fan of quoting other publishers but "Bring the player not the class" is a very important aspect in case of PvP (PvE too more or less)



    Fairness is the most important thing in every mmo with content.


    As I mentioned already, we're working on the other classes too for upcoming contents, adv2. etc.

    You can't keep a class boring like Lily, her advance is kinda enjoyable but it doesn't change the fact that she is all about phoon+carnage and nothing else.


    This is poorly designed

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    Quote from Cater

    What does high crit rate and crit damage matter if her overall damage is still lower. Her only selling point is that she is the best sustained super armour breaker in the game, so if you don't have an imba team, you can still break the super amour of GC bosses.


    And I mean PVP, dead game mode.

    There is many POV's and opinions and i do respect yours but crit dmg+rate still keep her alive as class. The overall dmg in this game comes from skills aka combo combine str>cri rate>cri dmg>armor break ! Each skill has basic dmg but normal should gain extra dmg by the STR aka max/min dmg from the weap something that seems won't work imo . Iv run multi test with few lilys in EU : example > 2 toons same max dmg cri rate diff cri dmg / same max dmg same cri dmg diff cri rate / same cri rate cri dmg diff max dmg ! on all 3 example the toon with the better amount of numbers was first . And as i said lily does progressive dmg not burst compare the rest class .

    Lilly doesn't want more dmg she wants better cds/not that long animations/ better hit box and lower SF consumption and prob defensive skills or better mobility .

    About PVP . For your probl is dead but there is player that still enjoy the rift or street fights .

    And lily can't handle any of those and is the only class . Reasons? all the above and in general this topic .

    Thanks a lot <3

    They know the thread already ;)

    They'll follow it for a while (+ the upcoming ones for the other casses)


    But first we want to finish the princess before we start with the next :lilly1:

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    Oookay, as a Lilly main, who accually can survive GC normal with OK job, I got A LOT to say on it. So, let's roll, what do you got?

    This means full agreement

    This means objection, high disagreement

    This means mild disagreement

    This is mild agreement

    This is indiffirence/neutarlity(Both good and bad)

    This is for confusing mechanics.

    Quote from Yagyu4k

    General

    Her basic health has been increased by (1-60) by 2.66%
    Stats scale with 100% instead of 86,77%
    SF gain by basic attacks has been increased by 0.2
    Single-target attacks against you have a 15% chance to reduce the cooldown of SoulStrike by 0.5 seconds

    -2,66% from ~20K base you get means 24K base. Seemingly insignificant, but....

    -Stats scale... I don't get why they are 86%, so change is good.

    -Another good change considering Lilly is a vaccum cleaner of SF.

    -OOkkaaay. From what I understand, you're working on end-game set. So... Why on earth that is a thing? You work as a Lilly to AVOID damage, cause you're squishy, not taking DMG on purpose. Albeit I can see use of it early on.



    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Ignore Pain [Active]

    Cost: 25 SF

    Duration: 8 seconds

    Cooldown: 45 seconds


    Lily is immune against all crowd control effects for 8 sec, decreasing incoming damage by 20%

    An... interesting skill. Maybe a bit too OP for GC (Crowd Control effects rule here), but considering you're squishy anyway... I would place it at 40SF though,, this ability is too low on SF. But would love to test in on-site.

    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Lily Wonderland [Passive]


    Transform your Soulstones into a nexus (multi element), dealing (with 100% Soulstone and 33% nexus) elemental damage.

    When your soulstones deal elemental damage, you gain 10% Attack Speed for 2 sec. Gaining a stack does not refresh the duration.

    I don't get it. I don't see the idea of that skill? What's the point? If this is litteraly +33% boost to SoulStones power then we have a problem of IMbalance here.

    The Attack boost for 2 sec over Ele dmg... I have agree to disagree on that one. Raise the boost duration, but add a cooldown to it. Otherwise, it's gonna be a little hard to control Lilly due to fluctuating speed of attacks.



    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Supernatural


    When Lily deals direct damage (No elemental damage), 3% of that amount is copied as healing to up to 3 injured allies. (as passive extension)

    Mostly OK, but with Lilly's insane CRIT DMG at some points, 3% is already generous. Maybe let's make it more static based (Like HP regen on kill?)



    Oh, boy, here we go.... So:

    -Ok, pretty strange, but likeable additon, but I need to play-test it to really see it live.

    -Ouch. Nuh uh, the Carnage buff does not work for many reasons. First off, it defeats the free-flowing psychology of battles. 2ndly, why on earyh would I place Carnage after a Scythe Strike. Lastly, it makes her predictable. If you see the double scythe, you know what in big probablity comes nest and can prep a counter, but still continuing with orginal plan in case of Whopise that it doesn't occur. I just cannot see it work.

    - The range and radius I have no objecitons with.



    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Charge-Attack [Extension]


    If charged, it launches the enemy higher.
    Afflicts the target with a shadow curse and deal damage for 3 seconds, (based on 0.15% of max. health by your opponnent)by pass armor

    Slow effect for 3 seconds.

    - If you do that, please keep the ability with it to go to air with it. It makes using Reaper's Call a very much easier job, and sides, all clases have easy-to-go-air attack/skill, why shouldn't Lilly?


    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Diabolo Spin [Active]


    Cooldown: 10 Seconds

    SF cost: 30


    Quickly rotate the scythe, pushes out the enemy at the end of the blow.


    Knockback range has been decreased by 35%
    Cooldown has been reduced by 2.5 seconds

    Ok, the skill which is already bad, becomes even worse. The entire idea of this skill is fast attack that locks enemies then throws it back, why cut it even worse? I don't get it.


    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Sickle & Chain

    Release a death god and attack the enemy while rotating the sickle with high speed.


    Damage 498% (+60%)
    SA 394% (+28%)
    Range has been increased by 10%

    No objetions here, quality of life changes.


    Again, no objections here, I use the skill quite often and it is annoying that it's inferior Bladewall.


    While the possilbity of shift-cancel I greet with open arms i have a feeling that I am like, the only one who understood the design. I didn't die mid-cast once. It's supposed to be high risk-high reward skill NOT for when enemies are in the AoE cone but when enemies ARE COMING to the AoE Cone. That's the agree on disagree on speed. While I see everyone's point, that the skill should be faster... I never really DIED from the cast. Got hurt, yes, but it's a risk with any skill. There is a reason for 3/5 in control, there will be tough elements like these that you gotta consider.


    Changes are good, and I don't think there is a need for re-vamp for this skill, this will do just fine to keep it balanced yet powerful.


    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Shadow Impulse [Extension] NEW

    Releasing enraged shadow spirits to attack all targets in the area for 6 sec. You generate 2 SF each time a shadow attacks.

    Damage 78%
    SA break 32%

    Cool idea. One issue though. The Soulplus it'll be fighting against.


    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Terrifying Madness [Extension] NEW

    Release a empowered Guillotine with chains. The chains coil around all enemies within 15 yards, pulling them back into the area whenever they try to flee.

    Increase the primary damage of Guillotine by 112%
    Reduce SF cost down to 65 (75)

    *sigh* The idea behind Soulpluses is that both options should be viable. And so long if the coil stayed in PVE, it would workout. But as things stand now, I don't see A SINGLE REASON why I would want to pick the Shadow Impluse over Terrifiying Madness. I just don't. In PvE and in PVP, this skill is suprerior in EVERY way. PvE,it will always be superior skill, but if you want to have any PVP balance left to gather... you might wanna limit that Coil.

    If that happens though,I am all for it! It would create an interesting player choice: Go PVE or PVP? The question that might have big consequences.



    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Terror Chain [Active]

    Cooldown: 16

    SF cost: 30


    Summons the Grim Reaper in front, the Grim Reaper connects the enemies with a chain, they are drawn towards the center of the attack range.


    Range has been increased by 3 meter

    Soulplus is incorporated into the skill. OK, what's the catch?



    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Crowd control [Extension]


    Increase the attack range.

    100% chance to stun your targets (idea by Rivertha(HOQ) to make her viable for PvP)
    Range has been decreased by 1.5 meter

    Hmm... this is another skill that requires test-run. The big thing is:Can I, even with difficulty, reach a Stella using a skill to pull the stun off? IF YES, this is a huge counter. If no... well, that's why it's only mlid: The range needs to be good to make a stun vialable option and this will need a test run or 2.

    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Postion Lock [Extension] NEW


    Silence effect for 4 seconds. Silence does not work against district bosses, just a simple interrupt. (PvE exclusive)

    Range has been increased by 1.5 meter (0.5 per lv.)

    Again, the PVP/PVE dynamic that is running around. Albeit... Silence isn't that powerful VS basics, but the range and potential oppurtinites to chain might sway someone not interested in PVP.



    Overall: More time. More time on skills and more cool down time. Raise the time of skills to 5 sec wth 15 sec cooloff and it should be OK.

    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Die-Phoon [Active]


    Cooldown: 30

    SF cost: 50


    It creates a powerful tornado to attack the enemies in front.

    Damage has been decreased by 14% per lv.
    Range has been increased slightly

    As much as it is annoying to see it, there is no choice here. We gottta cut the cord.



    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Discharge [Extension]

    Summons a tornado that moves towards the enemy

    Damage has been decreased by 10%
    Tornado is moving slightly faster
    SA Break has been increased by 7%

    No objecitons here!

    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Spread [Extension]

    The created whirlwind weaves forwards.

    Transform into a Hurricane for 5 sec, reducing incoming physical damage by 15% and drag nearby enemies into the whirlwind


    SA break has been increased by 44% per lv.
    Damage has been decreased by 26% per lv.

    I love the idea, I really do, but, I don't see how it will create choice dynamic with opposing soulplus? From experience, the following tornado is just .... bettter objectivaly.



    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Angel of Death [Active]

    After doing a rotation slash, cut the front enemies alongside the summoned Grim Reaper.


    No Changes

    That's weird. Nothing?


    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Absorb [Extension]


    Steal HP from the afflicted enemies, and heals HP of oneself.


    HP Gain has been reduced by 10%
    HP gain has been activated for PvP with 35%

    While this makes a skill PVP Vialble, for which I am happy, does it really neccesary to reduce the gain? This is THE reason i can stay alive w/o consumalbes, lowering it makes any no consumable battle a pain.



    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Silence [Extension]

    Unleashes a fast whirlwind of shadows, striking all enemies within 3 meters for elemental damage and silence the target for 2 seconds.


    Cannot be blocked or dodged, and has a 30% increased chance to critically strike.


    Damage: 128%
    SA Break: 94%

    An undodgeable ablilities is how we got nerf Lilly. Conisering AoD's short cooldown time, I could just dodge and use it over and over again until It dies. There has to be something hampering. Otherwise, history will repeat.



    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Battle Howl

    The reaper's cry increases the chance of critical hits for you and your team.


    SF consumption has been reduced to 65 (down from 85)

    Cool! Allows me not to lose the passive!


    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Battle Aura [Extenstion]

    Duration: Perm. Aura

    Range: 40 meters


    Increasing the critical damage of you and your team by 300/550/800

    Amazing!


    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Whispering Wind [Extension] (Beta Test)


    Duration: Perm. Aura

    Range: 40 meters


    Increasing the elemental resistance (Sin,Hate) for you and your team by 3/6/9%

    This aura is ready for every class, all of them gonna get different resistances.

    I'd not pick this ablilty, but I can see why would someone want to pick it.



    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Carnage

    Cooldown: 20

    SF cost: 45


    Deform the sickle to the scimitar form to attack. LMB to quickly perform repeated attacks on the spot for a period of time.

    Buff effect: 50% Armor Break
    Armor Break has been reduced by 20% (down from 70)
    Damage has been decreased by 15%

    This makes it in this form baaad. Albeit considering the soulplus, maybe that's the idea.


    Quote from Yagyu4k

    Through [Extension]

    You ignore a portion of the enemy's defence.

    Empower your summoned reaper. The reaper is casting Carnage instead of Lily, you're able to move. Lily gain 30% armor break while your reaper is active. You gain 20% additional armor break if you attack together.


    Hitbox has been increased by 15%

    Coming through! That's a good addition!


    That is all I wanted to say.

    Edited once, last by Lezionyx: Editing some color-related issues ().

    This is the best feedback post so far, a lot of detail. Thank you for that.

    Gonna check it once again to go through different mechanics ;)

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