Lily class concepts (Math later)

Quote from Yagyu4k

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Quote from Listy

Ahem, well ive read almost all this tread and thats a lot of damage, i mean a lot of info for my brain to eat at once, and also i cant truly see what all those skill reworks are giving to Lily until i feel it in gameplay under my fingers, so cant rly talk much about theory and math, BUT i think that all that stuff about Lily have a big issue, because she's a crit class and all those improvements are good, but it all doest help her as a crit class. It all misses that point.

^ Thats TLDR version, more thoughts and feels under spoiler.

much text such feels

What im trying to say is that she doesnt rly stands out as crit beast as i think she supposed to. Yeah she designed like a combat-caster, but since she has crit passives and buff i assume that she's a crit class.

Let's compare how other games handles it:

roughly speaking atk class in games do like

100-90-110 dmg

crit class 60-70-200
in this game

Haru 130-120-170

Lily 60-80-150
So for me shes not only lacks non-crit dmg, but also her crit passive doesnt help her at all to catch up to atk classes. (And i would love to know crit dmg formula in this game to understand it better)

Second thing in most games crit class is squishy like here, yes, but it also balanced with fast paced abilities, or skills to get out of the fight, or, for example, get behind target for a high crit and so on, in this game this part is completely opposite: she has very long animations, doesnt have escape, need to facetank everything to pull out max dmg from her skills, and even with her crit passive she loses in terms of dmg to Haru, while Haru has pretty dynamic style of combat with faster casts and more dmg.

Lily now feels like she just wanna be Haru with a scythe but she's not talented and it's all is realy difficult for her x]

So thats the main issue for me, i like to play crit class in games but here she doesnt feels like it at all, dont get me wrong tho i appreciate different approach developers are trying to take to this class , but its not working yet, and i think its a root of all her problems. Also i understand that no one will change her that much, because it would be like a whole new char in this game, but i still think all her skill improvements should benefit her as a crit class first, because this would not only help her fit the class better, but also will provide more versatile gameplay for gamers. I see developers tried to do it with that +2500% crit on 50% HP passive, but i didn't played on KR so haven't tried it at all, cant say anything about it. And, in the conclusion, i have to say that i dont want to make her just a copy of a common crit class from other games, but i rly hope it's possible to bring her crit power up to the table some way. Because for now she just doesnt differs from other classes in this part, she just have weak skill multipliers and therefore weak dmg and crit outputs. Like may be make some of her skills multiply her crit dmg also, not only atk number.

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Talking about her skills

indeed she has long CDs, and from that side trying to improve her basic attacks with this shadow orbs passive is a realy good idea imo, because i feel like she relies on her basic attacks way more than other classes. But while i talking abou CD i always thinking that Lily rly has only 3 dmg skills: Nado+carnage, Guillotine and Triad, all other skills feels to me like they exist just to not get bored afk waiting for CDs on your main skills, when i use them i rly dont feel damage, like i could just spam basic attacks in between and get same dmg.

- SF eating is pretty obvous problem and its all said already, i don't even use crit buff in normal raids because i dont want to eat pots or pause my damage output for too long by trying to gain some SF from basic attacks.

- About her Ulti - idk if its my ping or server or it's just broken, im getting knocked out while casting it pretty often, especially in pvp. So sometimes i cant even avoid incoming dmg with it. And yea its aoe is too small and it even doesnt pull mobs properly sometimes.

Also someone said here that ppl just take skill build from popular stearmers or gamers but Lily doesnt have an option now, its rly only 1 way to make her most effective and she still loses to other classes. And also not all players have time or money to try different builds and decide everything themselves, so it's not fair to blame ppl when they just go for known paths.

As for pvp

I dont think its good idea to fully separate PVE and PVP skill extensions in that game, because its PVE designed and you can't do only PVP here, this will lead to situation when you will not get accepted to pve party with your pvp build, or it would be simply a struggle to go through dungeons with pvp build, so u will need another pve oriented char. What Lily also lacks for pvp - some abilities to cover up distance, like almost all chars have powerful distance attacks or way to get in a short range pretty fast, but while Lily will cast her wack Death Twister enemy will be gone or will kill her already x] same with tornado casting even if you following it up with Terror Chain skill most likely enemy will be out of range already, and you as Lily all opened up and vulnerable while you are casting it. All she can really do now in pvp - run around and cast nados hoping it will end some low hp enemy cuz its damage isn't rly that high without Carnage.

Ugh i kinda exhaused for now and nothing else comes to mind, there are more things to talk about but i already got too much text x]

Anyways hope i explained my point and we can pull smth good from it in further discuss

And sorry if i repeated some already discussed or obvious things. Just tried to describe how i feel as Lily player.

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A crit class that doesn't feel like a crit class, that's bad.

I suggest Irascible add a scale to the damage, for example additional crit damage + 7/15/25%

to resolve Lily's damage scaling problem. Buffing overall attack feels like something like Haru's exclusive

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One of the problems yeah, the next problem is there is a min and a max crit, she almost always crit the minimum amount.

It barely happens that you reach the limit.

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Raise Lily's Max and move her Minimum up! >:D

Quote from Yagyu4k

Spread [Extension]

The created whirlwind weaves forwards.

Transform into a Hurricane for 5 sec, reducing incoming physical damage by 15% and drag nearby enemies into the whirlwind

SA break has been increased by 44% per lv.
Damage has been decreased by 16% per lv.

Quote from Lezionyx

I don't see how it will create choice dynamic with opposing soulplus? From experience, the following tornado is just .... bettter objectivaly.

I was thinking about this Phoon extention and i agreed with Lezionyx in it, theres no big choice struggle for me, and this damage reduction feels more like a Jin's class thing.

Also when i was fighting Nita in Deep Core I always have been wondering why Lily doesnt have smth like her nados attacks, and i think i came up with interesting extention concept.

So, code name "Blast"

Active button skill - Lily stands in a battle stance waiting for player comand

LMB press - Lily shoots fast moving single tornado (or 3 in a small cone) with a small ground trail (kinda like triad skill have, visually) in crosshair direction. While going through enemy nado performs like 5 hits with high dmg and SA break and lift small enemies (or enemies with broke SA) in the air.

RMB press - Lily releases quick spreading shadow winds around her, 12 small nados go radial direction from her creating a big round aoe (like one of Nita's attacks), every small nado have slightly reduced dmg and small SA break. Each nado can hit target individually so you can release a lot of damage standing close to the targets. (again, like Nita attack or, if someone familiar with DOTA, its Shadow Fiend's ulti mechanics)

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So LMB one mimics Haru's charging sword attack, i find it pretty usefull in PvP to snipe some enemy, and also it can find its use in PvE to clear narrow corridors in dungeons or do some SA break if you chose this extension. And it provides Lily with that distance attack, which she lacks for pvp in comparing to other classes. May be you can add some trail which stays on the path of the Diephoon and deal some dmg over time when you step on it. Or smth else.

RMB great for PvE but it depends on kind of content for high lvl. It's not so useful in primal, but if we will get more dungeons with many small mobs it becomes usefull. I think you can add slow debuff to this skill or make nados go back to Lily dealing damage again or/and pushing enemies towards you if you holding RMB (Lily not moving if you hold it) to make it more valuable. And it also depends on math behind it, if it will do decent damage or slow u can use it in some PvP scenario. And it goes well with existing Lily concept when she have to stay close to the enemy to release max damage.

Good sides

- Both extentions become valuable in PvP and PvE but they are pretty different so you now have a choice struggle, and have to make your own build to your own needs and preferences.

- Fits existing Lily play style.

- Provide her with powerful ranged attack for PvP

- ?Breaks nado+carnage combo?

Bad sides

- Need a lot of math and deep thinking over it, because for now it depends on dmg balance, you kinda need to make this extension really sweet to make player's choice not easy, but at the same time dont make it imbalanced. Because green path is still the best choice to spam it with BP

- May be need some tweaks or transformations to become better

- ?Breaks nado+carnage combo?

- May be its good only in my head

Hm, with +8 weap i have 8k+ min dmg, so it would be 2.5k+ crit dmg, seems good, and scalable so this passive would remain actual.

But min-max crit - idk what it is and how even crit works in this game, i heard you can deal less damage with a crit than with a non-crit if you have your crit dmg lower than atk. I've read also you were talking about this issue with Lily that she like always crits with min dmg, but idk what it is so cant rly have an opinion. I guess its good to raise it if she struggles with it.

I've also posted some concept for Diephoon extension, but my post still awaits moderator approval x]

Quote from Yagyu4k

Fun fact; which lily have more atk than crit dmg? Is that even possible?

yeah, right, cant happen with Lily, i heard it from erwin, just some weird thing i wanted to mention, like how is it even possible since crit dmg should be added to your atk x]

Also thinking about that min-max crit, i think as a crit class Lily should have stronger and more consistent crit dmg, so i think it will be good idea to scale her crit from atk AND raise her min crit dmg

Quote from Yagyu4k

the next problem is there is a min and a max crit, she almost always crit the minimum amount.

min-max damage exists in every game,so i'd say it is just bad luck on your side that you almost always get min damage,like i almost always get misses when i alt-farm. Unless you give her an extra passive in which she guarantess her crits always do max possible damage (which would then mean lowering slightly her overall damage if counter-balance is needed) i don't think there is much you can do about it. I guess the changes you posted on intesifying madness

Quote from Yagyu4k

(Increase minimum crit damage by 50%)

(Increase maximum crit damage by 25%)

can be a decent try,but it just ups her damage. If you always get min,you'll keep getting min,and so even if your minimum is very high you'll still feel bad about it because you know you're not getting the best result.



As for the 30% increase, i think you should be careful in deciding if it should be an alternative of the current flat-stats one that irascible gives or if they should be together. I don't how hard Lilly falls off at 55,but on my level 36 Lilly it gives around 1000, which is 300 short of doubling that bonus, and it has only 3444 of max attack damage. If you decide to only keep one,you may up the numbers on that (if you keep the percentage,you may do 30/40/50%,i guess? i don't really know,mostly spitballing on precise numbers changes)

Again,hoping that my words can be useful in doing an unbiased rework on this and all the other classes in the future, it's nice to see someone actually trying in giving balanced ideas

Ok, another uptade, back to analisys we go. Same as last time, let's go.

Quote from Yagyu4k

Intensifying Madness [Passive]

Increase Critical Damage. (400/800/1300)

Convert 30% of your attack damage to critical damage

or

(Increase minimum crit damage by 50%)

(Increase maximum crit damage by 25%)

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TBH, this is 1st time I hear terms min-max CRIT DMG. Doesn't that steem from min-max ATT DMG? Just saying.

And the conversion..... that's from 1,5-2K added CRIT DMG. Just putting it out there, not a huge objection, but if you think it's too much....

Quote from Yagyu4k

Lily Wonderland [Passive] NEW

Increased chance to trigger your Soulstones by 10%

Ignore 10% of Enemy Elemental Resistances

FINALLY. NOT. EXTREAMLY. OP. Thank you!

Quote from Yagyu4k

Reaper's Call [Active]

Only available in the air. Summons the Grim Reaper, launching the enemies in the air. It will attack the enemies in the air.

Hitbox radius has been increased by 20%
Range has been increased by 1 meter

Isn't that skill good already? I mean... OK, but, like, what's the point? It already does good at good range. It's not that significant anyhow.

Quote from Yagyu4k

Blade Frenzy [Passive]

Gain SF when hitting an enemy. Passively gain SF in set intervals.

Collecting a certain amount of SF will activate Frenzy Mode (50%).
Increasing Lily's maximum stamina by 10.

+50% SF

Movement Speed +10%
Critical Rate +5%

-50% SF

Attack Power +450

50% increased SF regenration

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Hmm.... While I agree with the position... maybe 15-25% Quicker SF regen, not 50%? I mean, a Stella with the SF regen skill can put it back up efficiently, so I see no reason to have 50%.

Quote from Yagyu4k

Deathly Triad [Active]

Cooldown: 35sec.

SF cost: 60 (40)

The Grim Reaper with two scythes appears, swinging them along with Lily. The ground smash creates three shock waves that will hit the enemies in the range.

Lily is able to cancel the ability

Casting speed scales with 41% of your current attack speed (exclude Akasha cards)

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*sigh* Here we go again. This skill doesn't require THAT BIG speed boost. Really. It only needs slight one. I said it once, I will say it again. Lilly is 3/5 in control. Anyone who thinks controlling her should be a very easy job should be mistaken. Deathly Triad is a type of skill that perfectly repesents 3/5 here. It's not easy to use, using it requires knowledge of your Lilly. It's a high risk-high reward type of skill, that already deals massive dmg. I don't see why buff speed so much. I never died mid-cast and if you had, maybe it was error from being way to close.

I mean, if someone is contact-close to you, the skill practiaclly misses them. Dealing only 1 tick of DMG. So, to me, it is obvious this is a distance based skill.

HOWEVER, even in the face of me being critical about the work sometimes, do not get me wrong, I appreciate the work put into it. Just I want to make sure that nothing will go OP/UP again.

Thanks for listening again.

I always thought they calculate Crit damage simply by regular atk damage + crit damage.

I mean, this was just based on observation while playing with Lilly, as crits always deal more than double damage than my regular attacks (even back when I wasn't lvl55 and had gear actually built for crit dmg), so I just figured... is that not how it works?

I think the reason Lilly doesn't really feel like a Crit Class is because Criticals are just generally way too important in this game. For just about any character, most recommend building them towards crit-%/crit dmg and recommend Shade as Arcana. Because of that, Lilly's Crits arent anything special.

Also, I don't understand how Jin is allowed to have a flat 15% Crit boost in his Glacial weapon, when Lilly never gets any more than 4-5%. I also had Haru or erwin weapons dropped with 7-8% crit. Seriously. How is that fair.

Quote from Yagyu4k

Quote from Listy

Quote from Yagyu4k

Fun fact; which lily have more atk than crit dmg? Is that even possible?

yeah, right, cant happen with Lily, i heard it from erwin, just some weird thing i wanted to mention, like how is it even possible since crit dmg should be added to your atk x]

Also thinking about that min-max crit, i think as a crit class Lily should have stronger and more consistent crit dmg, so i think it will be good idea to scale her crit from atk AND raise her min crit dmg

She counts as glasscanon, squishy but "her damage should be even the highest" I don't want her as best dps class but she should be able to compete with everyone else at least

Seeing she is both squishy and melee (high risk of whatever boss aoe, the most often class to cancel skill), she deserve the best dps class. Other classes have leeway to safely snipe ulti, and larger aoe

Quote from Yagyu4k

Which case?

Like to get rid of this combo or do you mean something else?

yeah, pretty much it, if you choose this extension you cant use this combo anymore, well i personally not that tired of that thing, but i got feeling that you are tired by playing her for 3 years

Quote from Yagyu4k

I love the idea about nita

but what about LMB part, i thought about this part as a pretty essential skill design to make her valuable in pvp with it, cuz main problem with green extention for me now is that its too slow for pvp, not only tornado speed itself but cast time also, like if you 1v1 its pretty unlikely that you will land that skill properly, and i feel like you can't just speed it up for that reason because it would become too op, especially with bp in PvE.

Quote from Yagyu4k

it seems to be a bit difficult for a extension

well yeah, like getting two skills for the price of one. but will we have enough skill points to invest in it as a separate skill, and game also doesn't provide much space for active skills hotkeys x]

and short freezing, Lily still have nothing to follow it up with, like your enemy stunned and you follow it up with Triad or smth, its still seems weak to me, i think it also must have decent damage, but with decent dmg it starts to sound OP, ugh its complicated.

Feel kinda same for small knocback for aoe nados, just can't imagine situation where it will be very usefull, so ill just still go for green extention, at least on paper, as i said i may be not getiing it all in theory, only when i already using it x)

But, in the end, i know nothing about game design, so can't think as far as you do, and im glad if something i say will lead you to new good ideas