Posts by Zodai

    I find it funny they have time to release all these cash shop items but can't address the community formally. Once again making this potentially awesome game feel like a cash grab.

    I do wish they would address us more, but at the same time I can understand why developers outside the community division don't really feel obligated to, even if it does feel a bit more like we could be getting ignored even if they are listening.


    The people who know and can enact change are different from the people who get paid to interact with the community. As such, this kind of disconnect is the result without any motivation to do wrong.

    I think it's crucial that the higher-difficulty levels cost the same as normals - a game like this is most fun when you're pushing yourself to the limits of your skills, and making the higher difficulty stages obviously more energy efficient helps to push players towards this.

    However, I will also say that a quest shouldn't be locked to normal difficulty, as that's literally creating the worst experience possible on a progression and gameplay level. Normal difficulty should be the starting level for new players, by the time they're in Ruin Fortress they should be tackling Manics. This sounds like a bug so I would actually report it as such, there's no design reason for this to be the case, given that all the other difficulty-locked stages are both tagged and there's no quests outside of Ruin Fortress that seem to be like this.

    They already confirmed they weren't doing a wipe. I will say that there are ways to impact the in-game economy though.


    I will say though that though gold selling sites are against ToS 99% of the time, so I can only assume Gameforge will try and deal with them somehow. More often than not they're actually just trying to get account or credit card information.

    imo I think the consistent Coin reward is better than the cubes. You can actually buy Akasha Transmitters for 600 Grutin Gold, so this way you're actually getting more stuff overall. The only real loss is that it makes fashion materials a bit harder to get which were already scarce as-is.

    We also need better systems to keep inflation in check if this is one of the fundamental design pieces being taken into account in the monetization. I don't know if the ones we have are strong enough right now, and if things go badly these could end up in the billions or trillions rather than the millions because of how much value Dz would have lost

    Or plan B : Smash the Weapon Upgrade Chip safe and profit.This is the meta now

    That's only going to function for a fraction of the playerbase, and still means you're basically getting no new players at all by that point, so the active users are still going to go down ^^;

    I honestly think this Gold/Silver package is a great deal. I see other games offer services like this and give much less for the same price.

    It depends on region, but that's at least what the system is intended to do - Gameforge is trying to make the VIP package affordable, whether or not it succeeds depends on how well put together the monetization is where you live, but they're at least making a step in the right direction and we should communicate the ways it succeeds and fails clearly so things can be improved.

    Because,after all,this is beta,a test ground.It's good also that we can buy these passes with DZ too

    We also need better systems to keep inflation in check if this is one of the fundamental design pieces being taken into account in the monetization. I don't know if the ones we have are strong enough right now, and if things go badly these could end up in the billions or trillions rather than the millions because of how much value Dz would have lost.

    I honestly think this Gold/Silver package is a great deal. I see other games offer services like this and give much less for the same price.

    It depends on region, but that's at least what the system is intended to do - Gameforge is trying to make the VIP package affordable, whether or not it succeeds depends on how well put together the monetization is where you live, but they're at least making a step in the right direction and we should communicate the ways it succeeds and fails clearly so things can be improved.

    $20 seems a bit much. WoW is $15/month and has been for years.


    I think their freemium model would do better with a less heavy cost on that.

    Silver tries to be the cheaper 5$ cost but because NA's pricing is screwed and it's balanced for the most cost-efficient EU regions nobody else is able to get a reasonable price. Again, the foundation of buying Soulcash in the first place is where the majority of the issue lies in this case.

    Alright, so given from the announcement post at VIP Membership! and the in-game shop, the prices for these in specific terms are:


    Silver - 590 Soulcash

    Gold - 1790 Soulcash

    Silver+Gold - 2190 Soulcash


    This is similar to one of the systems I proposed in the Energy Tribune in The Stamina Issue (merged topics) - present a low enough option to give people without as much spending power at least something that feels worthwhile to buy, while at the same time giving the energy system some extra breathing room so players can engage more often. I mainly suggested using it to increase the number of Mats in circulation, since we absolutely will need more of those around once the beta ends and the free ones in the cash shop are no longer being given out.


    The silver type is designed to be cheap enough for even lower-spending players to feel like they can make a valuable purchase, while at the same time its monthly nature means they can monetize those players more consistently. This is a good idea on paper, and it's priced just right for the EU region where 5 Euro = 600 Soulcash...but not for regions where 5 Euro = 500 Soulcash, and not anywhere in NA at all. That bumps the price up to 10$ or 10 Euro monthly, and players are going to recognize that the price doesn't feel right in that instance.


    I'll write up on how NA's monetization system in general is broken in the upcoming Tribune, but I do think this system in general is a step in the right direction - the intention is definitely there to try to give a stronger experience for a price, 5 Euro, that most players will be able to afford on a monthly basis - they are trying to set the prices low enough intentionally for that. But when the price is effectively doubled for NA, a region similar or equal in size to EU, then the positive impact this could have is generally cut in half.


    As for the gold and combo packs - Gold is 1790, whereas the combo pack is 2190. These are clearly meant to be higher-cost options for players who can spend more, and now that the silver theoretically establishes (only succeeds in certain EU regions) a low entry point for other players it's a reasonable goal to put a more expensive option in there as well.


    Gold actually lands just under the 20$ mark for NA, which I can't tell if that's intentional or not, but it's at least a step in the right direction - whereas in EU, both the gold version and the combo version cost 25 Euro in all regions I noticed. Also, the combined package in NA costs 50$ a month, which is just....broken. Very broken.


    While NA's pricing would require a rework of their Soulcash purchase options - something I'll go into another time - and trying to balance the VIP pricing for them here would make them far underpriced for EU, you can actually try to fix the pricing in EU to be a bit better by setting them in the current spaces available - that is to say, we give people a choice between gold and combined, rather than making the price for gold just push them into the combined tier, making it not a choice at all.


    If we aim for the gold package costing ~1240, we can get it into the 10 Euro range for those customers, and gold being ~double what silver costs generally feels like it's reasonableish.


    Of course, that would likely require removing stuff from the gold as it stands - and we don't really know what calculations they're making here for the value. I would say that market fees generally lead to more economic health overall, as those are the main things that keep the market from being flooded with junk stuff and generally is one of the better high-end money sinks, so giving people an unlimited workaround for it, even if paid, does set off some alarm bells.


    After that, maybe we can lower stuff like the energy it gives or the Grutin chance, since +80 energy actually gets us pretty close to the healthy estimates from the Energy Tribune at a glance already, and the grutin chance seems...excessive and a bit too RNG based to be reliable


    So if we cut the market fee workaround from Gold, lower the energy to say +100 and cut the grutin chance to 10% let's say that we can put the gold price at 1240. That means EU players can have a choice of the monthly cost they would like to put into the game, and should lead to higher sales overall. After that, we know the combined cost will fall into the 25 Euro range - 590 + 1240 = 1830


    Then what's the discount? The higher the efficiency discount of buying them both together the more likely they are to want to get it. The 7% currently doesn't leave much of an impact on the player, but too high and we risk the price falling below our 1500 10 Euro mark for the most cost efficient regions. So let's give it a 15% discount, setting us at 1555 Soulcash for combined, inside the 25 Euro range for generally all EU regions.


    Again though, the pricing is still pretty broken in NA, which I'll need to talk about in another thread.

    I feel like it was a bit long-ish, but I was actually really busy with work when the event started and only really got time to jump in a bit on the day before and the full day of basically the last day. I had ~600 energy at that time, and while I did try to spend it all before the event ended even going all day I basically only really made it to ~400 by the time I had to jump off.


    I think an effective doubling of how much energy we have might be a bit much. It makes me more confident that the 2.5-3 hour or 3-3.5 hour estimated daily playtime I shot for in my Tribune post might actually be pretty reasonable, seeing how 4-5 hours seemed to turn out, but maybe it's actually longer than 4-5?

    Given how in-depth the individual posts are, I'm worried every Tribune being in a single thread would lead to people getting confused in the conversations more than anything else. Since I don't know how many Tribunes I'll have yet there could be 5 different topics being discussed with 2,000-5,000 words per post ^^;

    I asked the forum admins while I was writing, and they said since an official merged thread already exists for the topic it would be more fitting. I am planning on making the Monetization one its own thread since there's no official thread on the topic with the [MERGED TOPICS] tag, and I'm thinking about making an additional thread as a general hub for the Miyano Tribune so all the individual threads can be found more easily, but I don't know if that's appropriate since it might be more about the Tribune than SoulWorker at that point.

    Greetings and hello!


    I've completed the last few edits to The Miyano Tribune post on page 16 - the incomplete statistics about play length have been completed, and I've added an Updates section to the bottom of the post where you can read on a few topics that I forgot to mention in the original piece, though in slightly less detail.


    I'll also be going over and replying to some of the other responses now that I have some time to do that - either by editing them into this post or by posting an extra reply if further ones are posted. Thank you for reading and I hope you have a good day!


    ~~~



    Greetings, and hello to everyone!


    A while back, I was planning on writing a Tribune on Difficulty and Progression after I finished my first one on the Energy System. That said though, at the time being a Tribune on Monetization would actually be the far higher priority, so a Difficulty and Progression post would take a much longer time.


    That said, there was a fairly important part of it that's probably best if it's set up earlier rather than later. As a result, I've decided to set it up as its own thing until then.


    Introducing--!


    A TRIBUNE EVENT - THE MANIC CHALLENGE



    The MANIC Challenge is intended as an exercise in balancing for the difficulty of the game at its highest peak, centered around the experience of the top 5-10% of players who will be challenging Manic difficulty from the beginning of the game and have the highest level of player skill.


    The challenge is designed around limiting a players gear/level - basically their numbers advantage - to what we consider normal/average, or slightly above average, for players at that part of the game, and playing through every Manic difficulty episode one by one without deviating too far from that average.


    Then, we have players mark down their experiences, either in this thread or in individual google docs, about the difficulty of the fight, the power and game health of individual moves and their equipment/level points when the boss was defeated, to see whether it was at the level we estimate most players of this level to fight at or if it was somewhat higher.


    By removing the numbers advantage, we get to see the experience of these boss fights in their purest form, representing the experience these high-skilled players are most likely to have under the fight. By balancing around this point in a way that's difficult, but still healthy from a gameplay experience and enjoyable, we get to push for a difficulty that's still a challenge to strive for while at the same time ensuring that the combat is more fair than frustrating.


    Lastly - you are heavily encouraged to report your progression and experiences in this thread or in a google doc, and you are also encouraged to create a new character for the challenge with MANIC in its name - Ex. CloudMANIC, WaterMANIC.


    There are four general criteria to be looking at when reporting the difficulty of individual fights or moves


    Readability/Mechanical Necessity - how easy or difficult it is to read the tell of an attack, and the difficulty of dodging the ability. How easy or hard is it to avoid making a mistake and how much that's dependent on player skill instead of blind luck

    Punishment - The loss of HP or damage taken when a read is failed and a hit is taken

    Enjoyment - How enjoyable the fight is, even if it's simple is it a fun experience or is it just frustrating to play against?

    Innovation - Does the boss introduce new elements that requires the player to change their strategy to succeed?


    Generally, the harder it is to read or dodge an attack or the more often it happens, the less damage it should do. At Manic level every move should at least be a threat, but taking one attack shouldn't deal half HP or decide the fight on its own unless the player is given a clear enough signal to dodge it. The quicker a move is, the more susceptible it can be to latency problems making it unreasonable to dodge as well.


    Enjoyment is what it sounds like, it should be difficult in a way where playing better makes the game more engaging


    Innovation is generally used to teach the player a lesson about the game going forward - these should be tuned to be strong so the player clearly gets the message being sent, but if they're too quick the player won't be able to get the message well and it should be toned down. Generally adds another layer of balancing carefully to the fight, because you want to make it strong enough that they need to learn the lesson to progress but not so strong that the fight ends before they have a chance to learn it.


    If you'd like to skip a MANIC episode, you should at least have challenged it enough to have an understanding of which of its moves/attacks falters in one of these areas. You are also exempt from stages and boss fights which are bugged, such as Grace City - Wolf Cry, Episode 4 (Grace City 3-4) at the time of writing.



    By going through the challenge and marking down our results, we'll be able to more finely figure out where the game should be balanced and give more information for the team at Gameforge to tune the game even better.


    Good luck, everyone!