Posts by Rin

  • Item Upgrade System Improvement

    Quote from Rora-Mohan

    your idea could be great but thing is if you just tell 100% xp = +1 then the grinding / farm cap is far lower and all the interest in the game is lost, because honestly if you reach instantly +8/+9 then where is the fun ? Just pass to the next mmo ?

    First, this is an erroneous assumption.


    In any particular MMO, there are various segments of demographics to consider with regards to monetization;


    Grinders

    These individuals would enjoy grinding content over and over again, and keeping them engaged entails giving them more things to do. There has to be some variability in gameplay, some new skills, some new thing with some perceived objective reward.


    Give these players more rewards, more content and things to do that entail grinding; offer premium specials to unlock custom content after they have invested a sufficient amount of time. Offer premium quests or things that can multiply your grinding rewards, like EXP boosters for free, mixed with some paid things.


    Expert Players

    These players are highly skilled players and like difficult and challenging content. Give them more modes to explore, change the dungeon mechanics, AI of mobs, etc. Having something like a dungeon-crafting system for users with daily rewards would greatly help player retention of this type of playerbase; monetization entails having the ability to unlock harder content in exchange for money, and being able to customize and fine-tune the parameters of such difficulty.


    Casual Players & Social Players

    These players thrive in socializing with others and doing communal things. Group dance synchronization, game design mechanics revolving around sharing in-game experiences, contests, leaderboards for most 'X' user, matchmaking, clearing something together with a large team, etc should be mostly incorporated into the game. Monetization entails the purchase of special accessories, or access/improvements to specific sub-systems of the game which enable expressivity (group emotes, recording mode, marriage system, fun events q/a rooms, specific 'group' actions that have in-game FX effects).


    Achievement-Orientated Players & Status-Orientated Players

    These players seek the need to get achievements, and the first in everything. Simply adding leaderboards for fast clear times, first cleared, first to do something and any other possible mechanic with artificial limits to being the only one to have 'X' or 'Y' will facilitate this sort of competitive environment for such a playerbase. Monetization entails successfully guiding a clear goal-orientated path of gameplay with defined outcomes with server announcements / relinquishment in show of competency.


    For status-orientated players, artificially limit the number of items / titles you can get something and have a defined set of things they must do in combination. Some can involve spending, some may not. Improving an avatar's social status through a combination of F2P and P2P means is probably the best.


    Thrill-Seeking Players

    These player seek the thrill and action of fast-based combat; death invasion wave-style dungeons with increasing successive number of mobs/difficulty, and other sorts of various activities that are engaging involving full attention like raiding probably caters to this group the most. Monetization in the form of fast gear track progression and skipping the grind probably works the best here.


    Reaching instant +8 or +9 itself is not equally valuable to everyone, some enjoy the journey to upgrading the weapon, but not everyone gets to have this opportunity. Obviously, you don't want to make the game Pay2Leave but if this game had more content and things to do, paying to skip the tedious parts and do the things that people want to do is a perfectly reasonable method of monetizing the game. Furthermore, if this system were implemented, it would be highly likely to be difficult to +8 or +9 your weapon without spending 45-60 days of hardcore grinding, meaning those people who value playing and grinding more than their time could do so, while being able to spend on other aspects of the game. There is no perfect one-sized fit all solution for MMOs.


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    Nearly every complaint on forums can be traced back to 'economic rationale' reasons - poor returns, poor systems misaligned and ill-equipped to appeal to a broad playerbase, garbage and inferior monetization schemes to other versions.


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  • 'Aurith Gods Random Box'

    Quote from Unlimited

    how is the chance on hidden akasha transmiters going for you guys?


    A friend of mine got 2 hidden plásticas from there but the price is toó higth and im unsure about wasting my dz on it.

    Roughly 4-8 per 100 boxes.

    You can sell them and buy 3 normals on the market on NA.

  • 'Aurith Gods Random Box'


    The average age I assure you, of the people playing these games, especially this one, is not 12+.


    That might be the case in the virtual pet site era or MS era, or 2000s era, but most people in this game are 16-25 by far.


    Of those who can even gamble for these boxes, are those who took out student loans, have a an allowance, or have a job or rarely, if at all, inheritance. I doubt any parent would let their 12 year old child gamble on lootboxes in this game as a habit, most cases are your typical smartphone I didn't know oblivious parent case.


    You are not going to find any (if much at all) 12 year olds playing SW; they are all on the popular block games/survival MMO/klutzy goofy F2P non-grindy/FPS games.

  • 'Aurith Gods Random Box'



    Let us the evaluate the factors of such a contention.


    North American players prefer high optical quality games. Failed.

    North American players prefer mainstream games. Failed.

    North American players prefer varied gameplay. Failed.


    The first premise attracts a large playerbase.

    The second premise also does the same.

    Korean Grinder dungeon MMOs are the farthest thing from varied gameplay.


    Social co-op games with large population base translates to high variability / distinct gameplay with every single iteration of a round, instance, or match.


    Shooter games will always intrinsically be more appealing to a larger audience than one with more barriers to gameplay .


    MMOs have keyboards. MMOs require graphic cards.

    Consoles are standardized. Controls are simpler.

    MMOS require internet connection and decent computer.

    MMOS require knowledge to play efficiently and effectively, shooters not as much - more hands-on.


    Furthermore, games for which the publisher are the also the developers themselves have more flexibility in terms of how they plan their content releases, how they can integrate feedback from the community (no time zone lag/communication problems, expedient fixes), and various other perks that a sole publisher does not get to have depending on the terms of the game license.


    The first name you taken had a first move advantage, and the second already has a pre-established franchise, they are also both developers of their own content, for which GF has absolutely no control over.


    A niche anime game. ✓

    Many implemented RNG systems by the devs; starting from upgrading all the way to akashi cards. ✓

    Segregated group content (levels). ✓

    Progression gear system dependent on periodic updates. ✓


    The first factor means you need to cover overhead costs quickly, as the playerbase function of all MMO is and will always be going to zero for when the rate of content churn is faster than the rate of content production, and when the main game premise revolves around progression.


    The second factor already presupposes the supposition of monetization solely by RNG means, above all else. Even if the cosmetics were cheap, how many people are going to pay up monthly for new costumes - and how many are going to remain in a game where you must grind 40 - 80/hrs a week. Not many will stay just to play costume simulator, there are many other games on the marketplace that can do that for you at a cheaper price point. Is it easier to convince 10 people to pay $10,000 or 10,000 people to pay $10? Personally, it's easier to fool 10 people especially if the propensity to spend is high because they make $200k-$10M/year.


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    The red curve shows the left-skew distribution of a cumulative probability function for the chance of spending as a function of spending. As spending increases, the number of players that can afford to do so decreases drastically. Technically the red curve should be shifted to the left a little bit. Essentially, the red curve is telling you that by setting a price point for a fixed price of anything, you are losing out on the revenue gained from the potential players that are able to gamble 30 cents to a dollar per box. If you set wings = $1,000, maybe 10 people on the server will buy it, but you will lose out greatly.


    The yellow curve starting @ origin point 1 delineates the percentage of playerbase that would spend as a function of increased spending, it drops slower at the beginning because many players will value things more when things are cheaper, and quickly drops off quickly when the unitary cost point of things exceeds their threshold of valuation.


    The blue function is the total quantity of money spent.


    The green curve multiplies revenue (blue) with yellow curve (players total) that spend. As you can see, at high margins, revenue is maximized no matter the scenario.


    Segregated gating as game design is horrific, as it dissuades new players from playing with older players and causes a cascade of solo experiences later on as one progresses through the pyramid structure of leveling. Lv1-3, Lv4-5, Level6-8 and so on dungeons, even worse so with it not being omni-channel omni-server based queuing.


    Players who play solo will quickly quit; SW is not a campaign game, and it was never designed to be one.


    A progression gear system like SW requires repetitive grinding, with almost zero variational elements. Mobs spawn at same time, bosses do the same mechanics; the chaining of mechanics is extremely simplistic. The dungeons are not randomly generated. You do not get to switch strategies or do anything relatively different whatsoever. Once you get your gear, that's it. A game without high capital funds to start off to create a massive content wall with dedicated playerbase or first's mover advantage into a MMORPG space will never have a sustained ecosystem of players to recirculate throughout all the content levels, and all the dungeons, raids, etc; even more so for niche games which do not appeal to western gamers.


    Just look at anime games, visual novels or anything of that sort and compare it to the relative popularity of 'big' games and big AAA titles. GF are not the devs. They cannot do anything. They cannot make the content. They can request changes and nerf or boost rates, but making everything obsolete faster just means a faster decay rate of the playerbase.


    It is true that in terms of the communal functions that GF does, it is incredibly mediocre relative to all other publishers out there; whether it be streaming content, having tiered spender events or whatever.


    None of the arguments of those points are cogent enough to apply to SW's circumstances. JP and KR were dead before, and KR only got a population boost after the fem- drama with closers, thus the devs dedicated more proportionate resources to enticing the new and rejuvanated playerbase. All MMOs follow the same waning trend, if they are not well-pollished with abundant content to start off with, along with a slew of excess activities to keep people entertained. This is why you see the consolidation of big titles to big publishers because they have the resources available to sustain large playerbases, with ticket systems, etc and much better attractive price points for all items. KR probably has 5x the active playerbase than here. KR and JP also have work environments that are not conductive to heavy grinding where people don't just up and go like in NA at their jobs, and where many other games are competing for their attention and mobile games too, so obviously the EXP rates/other things must be easier to obtain.


    The reality is as such is, because of the circumstances that make it so.

    I still do not see many low levels purchasing outfits, and I still do not see many low levels making it past Candus city. And of those people in Ruin Fortress, I do not see them grinding long and hard after they get their vicarious set. Out of the 18-25 demographic, do you think they are endowed with millions of dollars or high-paying deluxe consultant/engineer/tech jobs or embroiled in a slew of student loans/parent money/part-time jobs? I am pretty sure that getting $10 from 5,000 players per month is not enough to pay 15 people and a game license per year, even at EU's (median) minimum wage (of such countries that participate in such social policies).


    Even if you gave them instant plus 8 gear and good line stat rolls, what are these people going to do all day. The proportion of people who play Socialworker or Houseworker or Pvpworker is extremely small because it is not gratifying to do so for most people and enjoyable. MOBA games, shooters and the like are an entirely different category altogether.


    Money does not fly from thin air into publisher's hands. And publishers do not suddenly become developers overnight. I don't like GF as much as anyone does but when you set yourself up to high expectations with zero costs limitations, that is nothing more than a fairy pipe dream, and when you understand that the game design and content available is already 'wall' blocked to the casual audience which is most people, and not attuned enough for the 40/80hr week crowd who finishes everything in 3 weeks, then there is nothing else to argue except a declining playerbase irrespective of GF's decisions. Every Korean Anime MMO follows the same path with small publishers or no-name publishers.


    A declining playerbase means either the server is shut down once spending is stopped, or the churning of costumes/spending events/things are increased to compensate for the shortfall. That is reality. If you don't like it, then you don't have to spend on the game on day 1, and you don't have to support the publisher. It is your free choice to 'dodge' shady/irreputable publishers who mismanage their games' rates/monetization schemes, and it is also a consequence as to why there's no new 'next' fix MMOS in the market with people unwilling to spend, while mobile games become a lucrative means to end and the rest few a domineering market of few large game studios.


    You voted to not spend. You opted to quit when there's no new content. You demand content to be localized and released all in 40 days with double money back guarantees. You had your fair share of F2P crowding through MMO after MMO to find that 'special' one.

    The result? You get what you pay for. Low-quality money grab publishers that cater to anything but 'the next fix' crowd, with the same quest systems, the exact same content grinding, etc. Innovation only comes if theres resources and capital to invest in. That is fact, nothing will change, and all will be status quo.


    Also RNG boxes do exist in some games of the first dev company, and the second company only off-branched to MMOs after having initial successes from a niche audience; both are subs. SW is not a sub-game and will never be. If it was, all of us would of quitted and that $20/month would not pay for the servers or staffs' salaries. If it was higher, no one would spend.


    MMOs are capital-intensive, and offer shit returns when you try something new and fail.

    Copy everyone else, expect the same results. Profits, then shut down. The cycle of consumer and producer dynamics won't change unless the players (marketplace) decides to change their wallet voting power.


    Also the IQ distribution of individuals combined with the personality dimensions of the male 18-25 demographics guarantees that this cash cow of RNG works forever.


    Inability to defer gratification + Gambler's Fallacy susceptibility + Oversensitized dopamine system to rewards; skewed risk-reward ratio profiling + Disposable income = Free money


    Smartphone games, browser games, MMO games, card games. Medium changes, playerbase doesn't. Unethical? Maybe, but no one puts a gun to your head to swipe. Sucks? Definitely, so are you going to spend more on housing and costumes to make up for the shortfall in the other F2P who won't spend? Or what other ways would you propose to spend money on SW? I don't see any other avenues, a necessary evil as it is.

  • 'Aurith Gods Random Box'

    Yes on an individual scale, it is highly variable; this is why you aggregate all boxes opened on the server to get an estimate. If it was 1 in 100, I can guarantee you that you would see people spamming it on megaphone being sold for a cost parity of 100wus in NA. The fact is, the less rare it is, the less valuable it is. If everyone is wearing the same outfit and costume, there is nothing special about it, at least to the mentality of some spenders. Never claimed the boxes were a scam, simply saying I abstain from burning money into gambling because the average person who enters come out a loser. For every story like yours, there's probably 25 losers.


    The losers outnumber the winners, and survival bias always has the same people commenting how they got it in a low amount of tries. If the amount of winners outnumbered the losers, practically it would not even be worth $40.

  • 'Aurith Gods Random Box'

  • 'Aurith Gods Random Box'

    That is the point I was trying to make in my first post. There is no reason to complain as F2P for this box.


    And people who can expend more income will do so, thus subsidizing everyone else.


    However as a spender, I refuse to expend my income on RNG boxes; so I just traded them for WUCs instead as a mean reversion cost to expected probability by averaging the luck/randomness of aggregate boxes opened on the server.


    I am complaining about the soulcash rate 'normalization' nerfs and rather lackluster lukewarm things that gameforge is choosing to do which is dissuading many paying users.


    Also 10k SC/40k SC locked is actually very good. I rather have a 100% probability return for a fixed cost, than a 50% chance of burning $1,000-$2,000 and getting nothing in return of tangible worth. There are many people who would shell out $300 for expected 'cosmetic' artificial scarcity items on the server, and even more who are susceptible to playing the lottery box and being 'removed' and 'departed' from their wallets.


    In every relative term of comparison to other versions of the server, as F2P and P2P it is superior.

    Spawners tradable, alt farming daily, events for ADs, actual events, cheaper outfits, more things to do, gacha box event doesn't separate it into 5 boxes, etc

  • 'Aurith Gods Random Box'

    Nothing is free in life.

    Either way you end up paying with your time.

    Yes, it's F2P because if it was subscription-based, one would have to 'justify' the idea of paying the game every month of which many would stop after running out of content, like 1 month. If it's buy-to-play, not many will pay without trying, and less so with the time sink needed.


    It is free to 'login', and free to 'play', but definitely not 'free' to enjoy.

    You are walled from doing anything if you don't have godly RNG, or you took advantage of the akashi farm pre-nerf, or you spend money, or you have no job/no school and can afford to 24/7 alt-life. Therefore, it not a free game; no F2P is truely F2P, except those with millions of players who can afford to use economies of scale to reduce the average revenue per user necessary to pump out content/game updates.


    Yes, I would love to F2P and get everything in this game for free, but I acknowledge that is impossible with a low playerbase.


    The odds are roughly

    1 in 85 boxes for a full outfit

    1 in 425 boxes for a wing

    if anyone was curious


    So far on NA, 2 wings in 1,400 box; 2 in 20 box, 1 in 50 box; a lvl 16 in 142 box and everyone else 100-1,000 box=nothing. Standard deviation=lols.

    The outfit is also free in KR.


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  • 'Aurith Gods Random Box'

    Unfortunately, they normalized the rates after my post on the bot thread, and instead of buffing, as expected, nerfed it to equivalency on all servers. And for easier perception purposes, 17,255 -> 17,000 SC for $100 USD for NA. Lol.


    I did make a post about using RNG boxes with anti-destructs / other utility items to lower the bar 'of' gambling.

    However, because of this rate nerf, I am no longer going to be spending hundreds a month on this game.


    The additional revenue from this RNG box from 'certain' people on this server who 'open' 1,200-2,500 boxes just for wings should at least be put to good use and make category V events appear rather than just category I (afk login events).


    Furthermore, without the dichotomy option of buying costumes instead of RNGing, I will no longer spend on this game. I enjoy spending on cosmetics, furniture and intangible goods with fixed returns, over variable rates of unknown perpetuity spending. I am here to play, am here to support, but am not here to gamble for everything. Gambling is fine, if the expected return is good.


    The only remaining people are people with excessive disposable income of high six-figures or seven-figures blowing thousands every week to gamble their costumes every week; that is fine, it is a numbers game after all. Most of the people I am playing with (mid hundreds spenders) are considering and are in the process of leaving the game permanently because our wallets are not deep enough, and the things the company are doing for us paying customers is just not worth our time (from randomly banning people, to cucking us with bad rates for upgrading, to nerfing damage prefixes, to removing discounts for mass purchase of cash shop items, etc).


    As far as the concern of F2P goes, I could not care less of such players, nor would any company care about such players unless they bring in other paying customers. I would enjoy spending at norway rates, or at korean server rates, but it seems if one works out the math of 12,000 active players, 5% conversion rate maximum, and 15 staff needing $30,000/year minimum with a game license, it just doesn't work out in our favour. $7,500 Average revenue per user per year needed.


    Hell even the 1,200-2,500 box guy on our server is selling the outfits for $50 each on discord as a retailing service, because people are more risk averse, than risk-loving. FYI, that guy bought 300k soul cash in one evening at norway rates; so even 'whales' are not stupid even if they are very good at lavishing money into oblivion for virtual goodies.


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  • 'Aurith Gods Random Box'

    No idea why you are complaining. Don't like the box then don't spend. If they see sales are weak they switch strategies. If gamblers are funding the server, good for them. I concur that it sucks insofar that you can just buy these wings and outfits in the other server, but if one loot box can entice big spenders to subsidize your gameplay, then so be it. I just hope they don't rng every single outfit.

  • The pokebots have evolved

    Quote from Nirakan

    I don't think that GF sees any money but that the money is charged back.

    Also, let us all please keep in mind that these bots only exist because there are players who are buying from them. These people are the real problem. If you know someone is buying dzenai or suspect someone of it, report them. Don't go into instances with them, make other people in your guilds clear that you don't support this kind of behaviour. They are the ones who are ruining the game for everyone by a) causing inflation and b) being the reason for the bots' existence. Also, if GF should end up making less money, they will probably try to compensate this somehow, e.g. higher prices and stupid mini-games ('events') with awesome prices that make people throw their money at them...

    Doubt it, the level restrictions are higher now. They also put caps on spending, so chargebacks are not as easy. It is very likely they are using norway/european rates as foot traffic for their sites.


    Also, whenever you start a game model / business model, you will always have to assume something. Players of certain demographics who want to get gear advantages (the type of which you are trying to get revenue from), is probably the demographic that Gameforge is least likely to ban. Banning their own customers or potential customers is the worst outcome possible for gameforge. I already posited the solution in another thread to monetize this need.


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  • The pokebots have evolved

    Quote from _Mrcl

    It looks like pretty much a scam tho. There's no way they can get the costumes to sell at these prices

    That is wrong. If they go with the third venue, or break-even with european standalone rates, (99 euros = 26k soulcash) gameforge is actually still profiting for intangible items.

    The source of costumes can come from multiple avenues :

    Liquidated player accounts that sell for below shop rates

    Stolen credit cards with chargebacks

    Norway Standalone/ Steam rates (the third gives you a calculation and shows they still profit)


    Effectively they are acting as an intermediary for gameforge by negating the regional cost differences and soulcash rates of different countries, and allowing users to expend money without having to pay more for lower denomination soulcash packages.


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  • Item Upgrade System Improvement

    Quote from HoroHoro

    Can you elaborate this whole idea. coz i don't get it 100%. does it means when my weapon reach certain exp or 100% doi get 100% of success rate on upgrading my weapon. please enlighten me.

    It is equivalent, it is redundant to try to upgrade a weapon if you know you will get a guaranteed chance of upgrading; there is no purpose in taking a risk of upgrading before maximizing the experience gained for the weapon unless it takes an untenable amount of time, or the upgrade chance is already good enough for low +. This mechanic would decrease the sales of anti-destructs and strength expansion tickets, and increase the value of grinded weapons, which is why it is highly unlikely they would implement it. Unless they made +9 2,000 hours of grinding, +8 1,500 hours of grinding - but it would promote an ecosystem of traded weapons, only if and if soulbind dissolvers were accessible to non-paying users.


    I'm presuming a proportionate increase in success rates in correspondence to EXP values.


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  • 🎸 World Cup Event 🎸

    Yes on JP/KR, events

    - Server progression tier rewards

    - Item collection with buff

    - Play with same character for X times on Y dungeon for Z reward

    - Enter an exclusive dungeon and clear miniboss for rewards

    - Clear X dungeon in Y time for Z times

    - Community submission 'best' X gets reward

    - Fusion rate increase/guaranteed, akashi transmitter rate increase 5*, upgrade success rate increase

    - Tiered spender rewards, more spending more reward

    - GM Party / Host Events

    - Consume DZ for RNG box event with chance of useful items

    And much much more... all at once, twice as often, and three times as many events simultaneously

  • Weapon upgrade chips soon 100m? (EN Candus)

    Quote from Dissey

    I wonder where you get the 30min/WC from. I remember doing 10 hours of LC and getting one WUC.


    Good to see WUC dropping though ^^-

    I'm converting 1 EC to 8 WUC in terms of equivalence, on a per qube basis, per raid.

    If a raid drops X amount of qubes, and on average, out of every NX qubes you get an EC over the lifetime of farming LC, then you can convert raids per WUC or get a time conversion from minutes per WUC, if you know that ECs are worth Y times WUCs since ECs are more rare than WUCs.


    RNG applies differently (anecdotally) to an individual basis, but the price level of things on the supply side of equation converges to the normal probability of obtaining said item, when you aggregate the entire population farming WUCs and/or ECs. Doing 1,000 LC runs, etc, etc.

  • Weapon upgrade chips soon 100m? (EN Candus)

    Quote from Unlimited

    This inflation whit chips and converters price is halting the progresión and is unhealty for the player base.


    Even when it acts as a goldsink its counterproducent because the devalued dznai translates into less players selling cash wich means less money made be gameforge.


    I cant understand why the company isnt taking any significant measurement.

    It's true that players who are fooled into holding DZ end up losing, especially if they don't spend.


    On the other hand, the game is pretty much accessible to anyone as a F2P if they just farmed WUC or ECs, with the former being a rate of 25-30mins/WUC. I take WUCs/ECs as currency, and so do fellow thinking level 55s on my server.


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    Even if WUCs were introduced in CS, it wouldn't combat the DZ circulation that is staying behind.


    The only permanent monetary policy solution is division of DZ by 100, and permanent negation of all DZ generation;

    the effects are two-fold

    (a) valuable items like old outfits (bunny), akashi transmitter boxes, sgvips, lv9ss, +8 weapons, 3-liner aurith gear and tagged weapons can be sold on market for their value

    (b) render bot farming useless unless they do capital-intensive operations for efficiency to farm WUC, but then it technically would be good for the playerbase; even if they sold soul fizz, price levels would stop inflating because DZ is being destroyed from relisting fees- unlikely they purchase SGVIP en masse for all their botting operations