Posts by Mostein

This is a direct symptom of the issue I went into great detail on in my thread: The leveling grind will kill this game.

Though In this thread I specifically focus on the poor leveling design and how it will be the number one reason that players quit, it is still the same concept for endgame progression as well. I only focused on the leveling system in that thread because that is the first thing that a player will experience in an mmorpg, and this is something that CAN be worked on in the bate stage. If you fail to captivate a playerbase while they are in the leveling phase, then your game has a much more serious problem than "lack of endgame content".

I planned on making a series of threads like this, detailing problems in the game that can be remedied in our version, given GF puts in a little effort to actually attempt to learn from the mistakes of other versions. But at this point I lost all interest in providing feedback on this beta. How many Korean MMO have I seen flushed down the drain by terrible publishers. Why would I think it would be any different for this game.

Anyways, Just like OP, I was in quite a few guilds and I noticed the exact same thing, the vast majority of players tend to quit or play significantly less around level 35-50; the point where the game's terribly unrewarding and repetitive, grind begins to hit home. This game IS losing steam, and a lot faster than I predicted. After a lack-luster leveling experience, these players will get to level cap and find, you guessed it: literally nothing. The grind is terrible, the end game is non-existent, the cash shop is overpriced and unfair. A perfect recipe for having the worst player retention rates possible in an online game, and it can be so easily remedied. It blows my mind how these publishers are so bad at running a game.

There is a reason why Warframe - a game that was on life support by a nearly bankrupt studio for years, a game that was terribly grindy and lackluster in its beta (like soulworker, but probably worse tbh), went from being an irrelevant passion project from a tiny indie studio, to one of THE greatest F2P games of all time. Soulworker has much potential to be a force in the Western anime mmo space. Too bad it will never be realized by the people who own/run the game. Same old sad story, different game. Perhaps the next anime mmo that releases will be that game. Better luck next time I guess. I was hoping it would be this game. Yeah, never gonna happen with Gameforge. Their name alone has the power to turn away players en masse.

I have said all that I needed to say. Any further posting will be purely redundant on my end. I am done. Any new questions you may have I may have most likely addressed in one of my previous 24 walls of text. If you if you disagree with me then that's your opinion and that's fine. Bye!

Quote from Nitros

Well it would have probably be easier to make progress if that is the first thing you read in the OP, but I digress...

First I have to ask: Is it a problem? Is there any kind of example that shows us how much of an issue that is? If I remember correctly Dragon Nest, Elsword or Closers are all similar in that regard and all those games also have a similar concept to SW. Don't know about DFO, but Grand Chase, when it still existed, wasn't much different either.

Well there is the issue of the other two mode not giving enough EXP or manic mode mobs hitting a bit too hard, however most other games also just give you EXP from Quests and killing mobs. So if the former two mentioned issues are addressed I think we are fine. Getting EXP by e.g. crafting would not change how much I enjoy the game personally.

Yes, I have played all of those games, particularly Dragonnest for over 7 years and Pso2/Vindictus/C9 for a few years.

Of all the games in the dungeon crawler mmo genre, the most successful ones are the games that have(or had) mechanics in place to increase player retention, because it IS harder to hold a large playerbase for an instance-based MMORPG.

-Dragonnest had a plethora a quests, Nests, PvP, events, and Daredevil Faire just to name a few.

-Vindictus has a TON of quests and raids to offset it's ridiculous dungeon grind.

-PSO2 has a metric ton of daily questing and raiding you can participate in as you level.

-Soulworker has....Nothing. Just hard-grinding Ep4 manic. If you don't want to do this, then too bad.

That being said of course all of these games had its problems, some more successful than others.

I want Soulworker to be THE online anime game, because there isn't one in the west yet. I want this game to be popular for years like Dragonnest achieved in its lifespan, not be dead on arrival like the vast majority of anime-mmorpg.

This is easily fixed, all that is required is adding other sources of xp. Increase quest rewards. Steel graves can give xp, give daily quest level appropriate xp. Hard mode can actually not be useless, perhaps giving decently competitive Exp as manic, but not the same drops so manic, so there is an obvious advantage to do manics, etc, etc.

A belive me I have far more problems with this game, this is just the first one I am bringing up because it it the most obvious one that can turn player off of the game, and it really doesn't even need to be that way.

Quote from Nitros

Mostein

Let me try to sum this up and tell me if I am correct:

The issue you see is that there is no reasonable alternative to level up besides manic mode. That's all. Difficulty and other things just make this issue worse.

ding ding ding!

Someone finally hit the nail on the head.

This is pretty much the issue I am bringing up in a nutshell....I tend to be too technical but whatever :p

Quote from Xandorai

I understand you. You are failing to understand the type of game this is, and are asking for fundamental changes to the game that have never, and will never occur. This is a dungeon grinding game where people simply run dungeons for loot and levels.... and hopefully for fun. It is a simple system. It works. You are NOT pointing out some flaw in the games design... it was made this way, and will remain this way. You sound like an armchair wanna-be developer.

You are posting in a forum ran by the Publisher of a game which was developed years ago, and who has no ability to change the fundamental game mechanics that you seem to want. You just have to accept that, yes, people are going to have to run the same dungeon many times... as intended.

As to your last bolded part. Do you recall the title of your own thread? Here, let me repeat it for you "The leveling grind will kill this game in less than a year if something doesn't change". It should really say "Make these fundamental changes to the game that I suggest or the game will fail!"

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No, I am not asking them to change the fundamental game principal or design, I even list some very easy changes that the publisher themselves can make to the game in my opening post. All of this is possible, All it takes is tweaking some numbers and maybe adding some new quest dialog/rewards. That's it. Of course more actual development time to improve these aspects will help, but that is not even necessary.

Yes, the publisher definitely does have some control over the game....that's why they were contracted to localize the game for our region, which basically means "tweak the game to make this region of players happy". This is what "localization" (and globalization) of a game means.

No, I won't "just accept it" like you. I will at least TRY to save a game I deem savable.

Leveling grind IS the progression design I want to see tweaked....which is why I titled the thread the way I did.

Quote from Etsuya

Quote from Mostein

It being fun or not is irrelevant. Manic grinding is necessary, as this is the ONLY source of good xp in the game. Killing yourself to cut the run short is bad because it is fundamentally broken on a game design level, not because it's "not fun". Doing this should never be a practical means to play a game. Ever.

And yes, the end goal of this game (any mmo ever, actually) Is to hit the level cap and progress further in the endgame. Taking your time or rushing to the cap is purely subjective on the individual player and has no relevance to this discussion, which is about progression mechanics. The speed at which the player chooses to progress though a game has no bearing on the activities the game provides for the player.

The problem is you are pretending like there is some other way to level in this game, there isn't. The only way to level effectively is to Grind Ep4 manic solely for the mob xp. This is the only source of consistent progression and gear in this game, there are no other viable alternatives to play, so you will have no choice but to embrace this playstyle. All of this leads back to my op, how this playstyle is unsustainable assuming all players want to forever embrace the current difficulty of manics, and the dropping playerbase in leveling content cutting off the option for those who want to group for whatever reasons need be.

This can be fixed by distributing some of this xp that is earned through mainc grinding into OTHER activities the game could offer, like questing, nomal/hard modes, steel graves, crafting, giving dailies an xp reward, dynamic questing, even PvP, etc. This decreases the absolute reliance on grinding Ep4 manic and increases gameplay variety for the player.

Or decrease overall xp needed to level is another alternative, either one would work.

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So from what I'm understanding, your main points are:
1. Players shouldn't have to use the suicide manic run strategy if they want to level up in an "efficient" manner, because a dungeon is meant to be cleared.

2. However, manic runs are difficult to solo, and you fear that eventually there won't be enough players to consistently pop auto-queue.

3. I'm not sure why you want to redistribute XP from manic mobs into other activities; to promote players focusing on other aspects of the game?

However, looking at your solutions, it seems that your problem has more to do with the fact that players would have to run manic difficulty at all, especially down the road in 6 months or however long. If that is the case, then like I've stated earlier in this post, I believe you're stating something that game publishers are already well aware of, and is a common practice in the industry. I'll use my experience from playing Blade and Soul as an example: when the game was just released, dungeons had all their full intended mechanics. As the player population progressed, and lower levels became a deadzone, dungeons were simplified, and some mechanics which were required to beat the dungeons were even removed so that a player could solo it.

Game publishers are well aware of this trend, and they've been doing it for a long time. There is no need for you to cry out about how this will be the reason the game dies, because they WILL change it as they need to.

Now, to address some of the issues you've been bringing up: to make clearing dungeons more appealing, wouldn't it make more sense to just simply increase the clear exp or give bonus dzenai when you clear a dungeon? To deal with #1 stated above, it's a matter of making the intrinsic rewards for clearing a dungeon higher than the intrinsic rewards for running the dungeon twice without the boss. Currently, the clear exp is relatively trivial, and the only reason anyone would run to clear the dungeon is for the district completion rewards, or for loot drops (uniques, blueprints, etc). So if GameForge were to edit the game so that players were rewarded better for CLEARING the dungeon, they would no longer (or be less likely) to use the suicide run strategy.

My point here is that I believe your approach might be a bit flawed, and some of the suggestions you brought up are not applicable to this particular nature of game. You may have experience playing MMOs, but recognize that there are various genres/subgenres of MMOs. Dungeon crawler MMOs, like SoulWorker and Blade and Soul, operate very differently from open-world type MMOs like Black Desert, Archeage, and an old one from my childhood, Runescape. In dungeon crawler types, practically EVERYTHING is done through dungeons or something similar; quests are the typical "get this from this dungeon", "kill X amount of Y creep in this dungeon", and so forth, and the only method of acquiring necessary items to do other stuff (other than buying them on the market) is through running dungeons and getting them from drops. On the other hand, take Runescape for example, the process to acquire materials for leveling skills vary greatly; some are collection based, some are combat based.

I'll address each of your solutions in the quote I quoted: Moving/improving exp to

Normals/Hard Modes: will most likely be done in the future anyway without your prompt, that or ease the difficulty of manic mode.

Quests: this is fair, and will most likely also be done in the future where they will lessen the exp curve required to reach level cap so a new player can catch up.

Dynamic questing: you'll have to explain more of what you meant by dynamic questing.
PvP: this could lead to severe power/level/gear abuse situations unless a specific PvP mode/stage is created; that rests on the developer of the game Lion Games, and not the publisher.

Crafting: everything that has to do with crafting is pretty much dungeon related anyway. Blueprints are farmed in dungeons, materials are dropped from dungeons. Moving exp to crafting would only make crafting be another gate as it forces players to craft items (more than likely at points where it is not a necessary activity).

Not going to make a TL;DR because I'd want you to read my points and consider them if you were to reply, rather than not addressing some of the rebuttals, but for a summary: I agree with you that this current exp grind method is not sustainable, but I believe it is not of our concern because it will be taken care of. Additionally, I don't agree with some of your solutions that you offered, see above for reasons and my thoughts. Thanks in advance for taking the time to read it.

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1: Yes.

2: If there won't be enough players, then the only option a new player has is to ATTEMPT to solo all manics until they are level cap; assuming they are able to solo it, assuming they even want to solo them, assuming they won't get exhausted from soloing them. With no other alternative except maybe being lucky and getting into a carry guild or having friends to play with, The player is much more likely to drop the game than to continue, because why would he.

3. Because it will give the player a viable alternative to grinding ep4 manic. Redistributing xp into other activities instead of cutting xp will technically keep the pace of leveling nearly the same, so all the anti-JP nut cases can rest peacefully knowing that the """hardcore grind """" is still there.

If the developer/publisher enriches the leveling experience and prepare for a stagnating playerbase NOW instead of when it is too late, it will significantly increase the chance that this game will be more successful and have a larger community of veterans at endgame and more people to spread good word about the game, leading to more players trying the game. That is why I am making this post now., not when the game is actually dead with 100 players on steam and literally no one cares anymore. At that point, no change you make will save a game, I have seen this story far too many times for my own good.

Quote from Xandorai

Quote from Mostein

Quote from Xandorai

I read his post, and again, it boils down to the Energy system, not the amount of XP we get from whatever we do. Complaining that Manics are too hard to solo wasn't worth responding too. Story quests usually get you more than 50% of a lvl, but it is the Energy that drains faster than you can gain XP which slows ppl down... so again, nothing is going to change.

You read my post, and somehow made it about the Energy(fatigue) system. The fatigue mechanic has little to no correlation to the topic I am discussing.

Leveling is all about Energy management. The main two points I got from your post is that you believe that Manics are too hard to solo, and that you fear there won't be enough people in the lower levels to group up with. My response is that if people are running Manics to level, they won't be killing the boss.... because that will be making the most of their Energy pool. So yes, there is a direct correlation between leveling and energy. I'm sorry if you don't see that.

As for your worry about low populations in low level areas... well, that happens in every single game. Getting through them won't be harder for newer players than it was for older players, as long as they are interested enough in the game to do some reading. Gearing yourself in Uniques might the only "issue" for newer players, but its not that big of a deal since you can level up just fine using blues.

So again, it is not the XP rate we have here that will push people away, it will be the limited Energy they have to spend on getting that XP.

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No. Once again, the fatigue system has no correlation to the matter I am discussing. And you seem to miss the point.

I do not care about how long it takes to level. I do not care about manic difficulty in and of itself being "too hard" or "too easy".

What I am doing is pointing out a flaw in the leveling design, and stressing out the main reasons why it is not sustainable. Ep4 Manics are the only consistent character progression in this game, and because of this, it will ultimately hurt the game if something is not done to encourage play in other aspects of the game. What I ultimately seek is to improve the leveling experience by giving the average player more viable options to progress through the game. You achieve this by either adding variety of new rewarding mechanics to the game OR change the way xp is currently distributed in the game. Either option achieves a similar result. Changing the energy pool does not change the fact that you will have to grind 3,000+ manics to level cap, therefore there is little correlation to what I want to see changed.

Again, this is not about being able to solo manics. This is not about "it takes too long to level up." It is about HOW you level up. This is the biggest thing most people in this thread fail to comprehend, because they do not read my posts thoroughly. They see me mention xp rates and some problems that comes with manic difficulty, and automatically assume "Oh he just want the game to be EZ mode like JP becuz he is bad" That is not true.

Quote from Komari

Just because it's efficient doesn't mean it's gonna be fun.

There are a ton of guides on various games about the most efficient way to do x, or grind for y. It's not about having fun, it's about reaching the end goal. If the end goal in this case is getting to cap through killing yourself in manic dungeons to preserve energy to do it again that's what you want and not something you're being forced to do.

If all you plan to do is get to cap while caring about nothing else at all on the way there, how the hell are you going to expect to find any fun or excitement in that?

It's your choice and your choice alone basically ignore everything about the game in order get to your end goal.

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It being fun or not is irrelevant. Manic grinding is necessary, as this is the ONLY source of good xp in the game. Killing yourself to cut the run short is bad because it is fundamentally broken on a game design level, not because it's "not fun". Doing this should never be a practical means to play a game. Ever.

And yes, the end goal of this game (any mmo ever, actually) Is to hit the level cap and progress further in the endgame. Taking your time or rushing to the cap is purely subjective on the individual player and has no relevance to this discussion, which is about progression mechanics. The speed at which the player chooses to progress though a game has no bearing on the activities the game provides for the player.

The problem is you are pretending like there is some other way to level in this game, there isn't. The only way to level effectively is to Grind Ep4 manic solely for the mob xp. This is the only source of consistent progression and gear in this game, there are no other viable alternatives to play, so you will have no choice but to embrace this playstyle. All of this leads back to my op, how this playstyle is unsustainable assuming all players want to forever embrace the current difficulty of manics, and the dropping playerbase in leveling content cutting off the option for those who want to group for whatever reasons need be.

This can be fixed by distributing some of this xp that is earned through mainc grinding into OTHER activities the game could offer, like questing, nomal/hard modes, steel graves, crafting, giving dailies an xp reward, dynamic questing, even PvP, etc. This decreases the absolute reliance on grinding Ep4 manic and increases gameplay variety for the player.

Or decrease overall xp needed to level is another alternative, either one would work.

Quote from Nan

I do feel that one of the assumptions here, namely that group leveling is required at all is wrong. At risk of repeating myself(because I swear I might have said this already), Maniac solo is your best source of exp(ironically dying at the boss having better exp to FP ratio than killing the boss).

The key point is, it's just incredibly boring. Not everyone wants to do the most efficient method because it's dull. The problem is, literally everything under it is like trying to cut cold butter with a spork.

*note: I do feel the text wall could have been simplified to an incredibly basic level, but it's OP post. Eh, forums.

The fact that running into the hardest dungeons in the game and literally dying on purpose being the best and most efficient play-style while leveling is absolutely asinine in and of itself. Think about it. Why should you even have to play like this to begin with. And you are right...It IS boring. So why not CHANGE it for the better (while the game is ALREADY in a beta phase) for the sake of better game design? For the sake o making a more enjoyable game for all players. That is what I am attempting to do but some people are so terrified of any change it's not even funny.

Quote from Xandorai

I read his post, and again, it boils down to the Energy system, not the amount of XP we get from whatever we do. Complaining that Manics are too hard to solo wasn't worth responding too. Story quests usually get you more than 50% of a lvl, but it is the Energy that drains faster than you can gain XP which slows ppl down... so again, nothing is going to change.

You read my post, and somehow made it about the Energy(fatigue) system. The fatigue mechanic has little to no correlation to the topic I am discussing.

Quote from Giftless

Thank you OP! I get the message you are trying to convey to these...well lets not go there.

All of your posts have been on point, I just do not understand where your energy comes from trying to make these people understand.

It amazes me how many people here, mostly English speaking Americans, lack proper reading comprehension.

OP does not ask you of your opinion on YOUR leveling experience with the game. He points out a flaw in the way the game is currently implemented by GF.

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Your support is appreciated bro.

I have been doing this for over 10 years, dealing with fanboys, trolls, irrational, or incompetent people on gaming forums. I've grown extremely thick skin and learned how to reply to each type of personality. Overtime you just learn how to cut through the BS/filler/fluff talk and deconstruct the core of their post. I've gotten really effective at doing this by arguing against so many types of people over the years and understanding how they tend to post.

I just want whats best for the game, because I love the game too. And the leveling can be a much more enjoyable experience that's not straight up grinding 3,000 manics because there is literally no other way to get decent xp, which is ludicrous. The sooner they take this kind of feedback and make adjustments the better. This is an open BETA test for a reason, is it not? Of all times, this is the best time to provide your most critical feedback because things are most likely to change during the beta phase.

Quote from 25arp26

Hello!

Mostein please, avoid making personal attacks against other users. Flaming is not welcome here. Also avoid double posting, you can edit your old comments anytime.

Regards,

Arp

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While I appreciate the moderation, I haven't made any double posts, at least not that I am aware of. If I did, my bad.

Also I communicate in a very straightforward way. this can come off as "personal attacks" to some, but I assure you that is not the intention. I only respond to what I get, and if I get people who literally say they didn't even read my post and continue to boast their ignorance in my thread multiple times, well, then I will answer to them accordingly. Sometimes honestly and confrontation doesn't have a nice face.

Also just a heads up I do read every reply here guys, I just can't reply to everyone because that is borderline impossible.

-Improving dungeon clear and quest rewards will greatly make the leveling experience more enjoyable. Have much more of that xp come from questing to reduce the necessary manic grinding.

-Create less of a reliance on grinding manics to gain exp and gear so players will have more options to go about leveling (provide xp through crafting and other non-combat activities, similar to what Guild Wars 2 does).

-Add daily quests which rewards xp that scales with your level and makes you run lower level dungeons, this can help reduce the "theme park" syndrome by giving you a daily incentive to re-visit lower level content, and break up the tedium of spamming one manic 50 times at higher levels.

-Making normal/hard difficulty give decent xp can provide a great alternative for casuals and solo players who don't want to spam 3000 manics to level cap.

-Giving Steel Graves a hefty exp reward and level appropriate gear when you clear a chapter can also be a great source of gear and xp (I honestly don't know if these provide any xp rewards, never payed attention, but Im pretty sure they don't)

-Slightly decrease the difficulty of content below level 15 to be more noob friendly, because...noobs.

-Decrease overall game difficulty and decrease xp required to level to make leveling much quicker and easier for casuals, this is the route the JP version took.

(Again, I have to stress I don't care about the JP version, people are so obsessed with JP. If you criticize anything to do with difficulty/xp or suggest any QoL change to the game, people immediately think you want this game to be a copy/paste of the JP version and they go nuts. Chill. Jesus. I am NOT saying make this version like the JP version so just stop.)

These are all simple solutions they can implement during the BETA phase that will create a much healthier and enjoyable leveling experience.

Quote from Yamato

Okay, so... what's the purpose of this thread? Are you hoping for some sort of petiton style movement? Get enough players to agree to it and hope Gameforge notices it?

There is a suggestions section where you can provide feedback on what you think of the exp rates. Though I would wager there's already a similar thread suggesting difficulty be decreased or exp rates be increased.

Many have speculated that the exp curve may be adjusted in the future to better suit the demographic. Gameforge has already tweaked it from other versions, no reason they wouldn't tweak it again later.

This thread as of right now is doing nothing but creating drama and making you sound a bit pretentious with your vast "experience in this industry". Your points have some merit and may have been received better if you weren't presenting it in a condescending manner.

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my goal was to provide my constructive criticism on the current open BETA and to start a discussion on the game forum....because that is what the forum is for.

The only "drama" on this thread is, is Alzii proving how incompetent she is and people literally just reading the title, and nothing else, and me telling you to actually read my post. Nothing I have said is condescending, I am just merely responding the what I get. And if you say you didn't read my post or I can clearly tell you didn't read it, I will address you so.

Quote from Ice+

Game is gonna be a wasteland in 2019 regardless if the leveling is easy or hard, if the endgame content gets painfully boring after a few weeks. And the PvP content in this game is the worst I've ever seen in any MMORPG, so PvP people won't stay for long either.

Hopefully we can move that wasteland date back a few years so we can enjoy a healthy anime game for once, but who am I kidding. Yet another game I like is probably gonna be a total ghost town come this time next year. Just another story of failure in the mmo genre I guess....

Quote from Alzii

I'm going to spare you my usual teasing as not to display aggression. I am taking you literally, I just read your post like you asked. If I disagree with you it is not because I am not taking you seriously, I simply disagree with you.

1. I've never witnessed a game have lower population early game. There will always be a continuous flow of new players and semi-veteran players and other max level players wanting to make alts. This is not something in the black and white. There are so many factors as to why someone will do one instance compared to another. This something that is especially difficult to achieve in a free to play MMO where there is never enough "population" in one area. I've been arond the cities and people getting their groups just fine. I have no idea how else I am to explain this to you, it's tiring.
2. The rates are not final and this isn't the current client build. We're also missing a majority of the quests currently.
3. You're missing my point (I wonder why....) The developer made it so that Manics are not simple and easy to clear. It's best you respect that, because they're not going to let you stomp on their science project and take their lunch money. If Manic is easier why bother implementing the other difficulties? Yes, they are difficult to clear right now because as I've stated maybe 3 times in my last reply and this that we're on an old build and things are currently not balanced you'd understand my point.
4. Nice, I'm not even gonna argue with this one here because your response is as comprehensive as your point. (oops, is that being too aggressive?)

I have total understand on the matter, it's not a difficult subject to grasp. If you spend half a year coasting low level areas in a MMO you can see how much life and wonder there is out there and how amazing a community can really be. I am taking it seriously, I ensure you (okay maybe not 100%).

Why do you consider leveling 100% of playing a MMO? Leveling is only temporary process, that's quite obvious for anyone, perhaps you didn't read my statement correctly! I also have no idea what you're rambling about in the last bit of that either. For the vast majority of MMORPGS? This is only one, darling, those others have nothing to do with this one. What's 3% of my experience? Leveling? Then why are you making this thread? This is such a vague statement.

0) I don't care about your aggression or trolling on the internet. I am not a child.

1)Then you have nary the experience in this industry as I, simple as that. I have played every single mmo since 2003. ALl of them. Seriously. I have seen too much wasted potential in this genre, I have been apart of so many communities and witnessed so many games die its not even funny, it is sad. I can tell you with 90% confidence what the outcome of this game will be if they don't make adjustments right now while the game is in it's early BETA stages: It will die. Fast. Simple as that. Btw you are having trouble explaining because you can't comprehend well to begin with.

2)Ok. I hope your right too..that's why I made this thread.

3)And my point is Manic is the ONLY thing in this game that provides substantial rewards via xp and gear while leveling. The other difficulties are worthless, you HAVE to group up with manics. What if you can't solo it? what if you don't want to solo it? what if you simply can't find a group? This drastically increases the chance that a new player will quit. Soloing this is very draining, and grouping will get significantly harder overtime if the leveling progression is not adjusted, preferably while the game is still in BETA and is generating buzz. You trying to explain to me that Manic is 'difficult" (no shit, Sherlock?) and stating over and over that "we are on a old build" Has zero correlation to the progression design issue I am bringing up.

4: No, my response was exactly what it should have been, because you literally couldn't comprehend what I was saying on my 4th point.

"I have a total understanding on the matter"

No you don't. You then ironically prove how little you understand the point in your following sentences LOL!

"I am taking it seriously"

...didn't you just say you weren't taking it seriously?

"Why do you consider leveling 100% of playing a MMO?"

I literally did not say this, LOL! How old you you, really? That's a genuine question.

"I also have no idea what you're rambling about in the last bit of that either."

you have no idea about anything. Period.

"IS 3% of my experience leveling"

Yes. Oh my god I cannot believe you didn't get that part.

Again, it is painfully clear you are having issues comprehending the point, there really isn't much else I can say to you.

Quote from Aimi

Quote from Segovax

All of you missed the point when he wrote about the "6 months down the line". He's not talking about someone that have been playing for 6 months, but some new player that just realized this game exists in September 2018! He will find it will be hard to level up without a group to do Manics, because the game lost the "fotm" playerbase, and the regulars are enjoying the endgame without even setting foot in the lower-level dungeons. I think that the devs might be aware of this and lower the difficulty/increase xp by then.

Ofc now wouldn't be the best time, as there are still many players leveling or trying other characters.

Thing is you can't cater to everyones needs.

There are also people who will NOT like being thrown into the endgame so quickly even if the game is out for 1 year+.

You ALREADY get thrown into the endgame instantly.

Once again, hitting levelcap in an mmoprg in 10-15 days is not a long grind. Period. This game already has a short grind and it's obvious the true game progression starts after you leveled up your scrubby character to end game.

The PROBLEM is that the leveling system is not sustainable for player retention. (quests gives no xp/gear, normal/hard difficulty is worthless for exp/drops, Manic is the only sustainable source of xp and will almost require you to group up to clear this content efficiently, etc)

THIS is what I am bringing up, I am talking about macro game design, I don't care about your (or my) personal preference. If they choose to leave the leveling progression as is, it will for sure be a massive contributor to player turnover that will get worse as time passes. Like it or not, the reality is the vast majority of people enjoy a more casual experience (that being easier, quicker, or both) and the leveling progression should be built around retaining the largest market of players possible, in order to improve retention rates.

Leveling being completely unrewarding in every aspect will overall hurt the game, it doesn't matter if you personally enjoy it the way it is. If you want a more lively game, you need to make changes that will be more likely to get more players to the endgame and KEEP them there.

Quote from Inabi

But lvling isn't that hard tho '-'.

Maybe try playing BDO and then you will realize what it is to REALLY grind levels.

Brilliant.

Quote from Alzii

Quote from Mostein

Quote from Alzii

I believe they are in that spur of the moment when they are just so upset by how slow leveling can get sometimes.

No. Please read my post.

You're taking me too literally, darling.

Let's start!

1. Everything takes time if you're doing a pick-up group in MMOs, this is a given. I'm assuming you're upset with the current auto-team feature which DOES have a lot of issues with it currently, but that doesn't mean that it's not going to be touched by the developers. We will have to see what treats Lion Games has for us when we get our official release.
2. There is nothing anyone can do to control this. You also have the option of spamming the chat with a leveling party advertisement. It's worth mentioning that there will never be, from my experience, an "everyone is at endgame" as there will always be new players, especially in a Free to Play MMO.
3. I've been leveling with a group of friends (who are casual players, by the way) and we've been going through manic dungeons pretty steadily. One might be more difficult than the other but we're able to clear them pretty consistently, considering we're risking ourselves by using lower stat gear so we can get that juicy EXP boost from armors, which is totally worth it. I don't believe it's impossible but you WILL have to pay attention to the boss and what they do in Manic. It's not like other KRPGS where enemies get a little damage boost and more health, bosses will also have a few added attacks you won't see in Normal or Hard.
4. What does play time have to do with leveling? If you're 6 months in and not "skilled enough" to clear manics (which is, by the way, just learning to avoid boss mechanics as there is no enrage) there are probably still people around your level that need to level up too. I don't see what anyone wouldn't level with you because they somehow knew your playtime unless they're a friend and would probably help you level if they're a good friend.

Fortunately for you I disagree with people who are all about the "no more EZ GAME". I do believe some bosses need to get nerfed (Jokaquin and Nether Keeper) and some need to get buffed (I'm looking at you, Kurisu). We're currently playing on an old Korean build so things we see now won't be the same for long. I want to go back to my previous post where I stated that leveling is 30% of the game's content and there are more about a RPG than leveling or fighting things, not like you'll care so I won't waste my energy typing about it. In fact, some MMOs benefit a lot from their level grind (Hi, Maplestory) and some people love grinding for levels no matter how long it takes while also wishing to learn about the class and do endgame with it on the side.

I love your thesis by the way, It's

Quote from Mostein

Brilliant.

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I am not upset. Stop making random assumptions about me. Also, you are not taking ME literally enough. I am not here to play games and lightly troll the forum. I brought up an issue I find serious, and if you don't want to read my post then please stop wasting my time. I don't have the time or patience to engage in an endless epeen flame-war with some fanboy that doesn't even read what they reply to.

1: Again, I addressed this. I am talking about the shrinking population in lower level content as the game ages, and how that creates LONGER queues, which increases the potential for new player turnover. I am not talking about any technical issues with the current group finder system.

2: Yes there is a way to address this, and I literally tell you what can be done. Increase xp rates, increase quest rewards, make Manic difficulty more forgiving, make normal/hard give MORE xp.

3: You are missing the point (I wonder why...) The point is the only way to quickly clear manics and have a good time is by grouping, and this will not be as easily possible as the game ages. We can enjoy this now because the game is NEW so everyone is leveling, but the current leveling progression is not sustainable in the longterm. Making a change now will leave the game in a much healthier state than if they did it 2 years later when the game basically fell off the Earth and there are only 100 people playing on steam.

4: You completely missed the point here, Jesus Christ. at least TRY comprehend my post, please.

You seem to lack a complete understanding on the subject matter I am bringing up either due to willful ignorance or trolling. Replying to you further is a waste of my time if you won't actually take it seriously.

Also playing an mmo isn't 30% of the experience, for the vast majority of modern mmorpg, it's more like 3% of your experience. Il let you figure out why.

Quote from Ice+

The "challenge" to reach lvl 55 is not what will kill the game in less than 1 year.

The lack of engaging endgame content at lvl 55 is what killed the game in KR/JP/TW. You can clear all endgame stuff in 1-2 months. After that it's just more of the same - grinding to reroll better stats, grinding to get Dzenny for Tera Brooches or costumes or whatever. It gets seriously boring, and that's why this game never really reached any kind of popularity in asian regions. It fell out of top100 most popular MMO in KR after just 3 months, and is barely being kept alive by whales. Even though the core gameplay elements of the game are fantastic, the lack of endgame content makes people lose interest very quickly.

It honestly doesn't matter if people quit before reaching 55 or 1-2 months after reaching 55. Only a very small percentage of them will find it worthwhile to keep grinding the same endgame dungeons repeatedly after the initial few weeks.

It doesn't matter if there is a "lack of endgame content" If the player loses retention before they ever even reach level 40. This is why it is most important to improve the LEVELING experience NOW.

Endgame is where every single player will spend the vast majority of thier time (obviosuly). ANd because of this, you want new players to GET to endgame as painlessly, easily, and/or quickly as possible, otherwise they lose interest and drop the game, which is worst case scenario.

Endgame can always be (and always will be) expanded upon and is where the most enjoyable content is at in a mmorpg. This can be improved by adding content, while the leveling experience can ONLY be improved by adjusting exp rates, removing content, and/or difficulty scaling. It DOES matter if they quit 2 months after 55 instead of 2 days after level 15...thats called having better retention rates which is what a game like this should always be trying to improve on.

Just an FYI:

I don't care if you personally enjoy the current leveling experience.

I don't care If i personally enjoy the leveling experience (which I do, I would love for it to stay this difficult, but I have enough experience in this industry to know that the current design philosophy is not sustainable, not even close).

This is not about your fun or what you (or I) think. This is about discussing the macro issue in this game's progression design and long term player retention capability.

Gameforge needs to do what is best for the games health and longevity, not what YOU personally enjoy on an individual basis.

For example: If we just make the game hard as all hell with no perspective, then this game will end up as dead as Wildstar...a game that was too difficult for its own good, despite player outcry, and payed dearly for it.